Peter2150 

In the sense of fair and balanced, I am not sure what is going on in this thread is all that ethical either. If you are truly trying to warn people about the dangers of AT's then there are a lot of them out there. Why not review all the one's on Ninja's site. Why just Viper. It's almost like you have some kind of personal agenda, which calls into question your objectivity. Also from the timing of release of their recommendations, you either are on the inside, have a contact on the inside or have some way of getting info almost immediately. Not the highest standards of ethical conduct in my opinion. Pete PS No I don't use the autotraders, cause I don't like them myself.

Everything in this thread is fair and ethical. In fact, it's overly fair. Why? Because it gives information to the public that they wouldn't be privy to unless they spent their money to find out. And I'm not breaking any laws. All the information is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge. And if it weren't, I imagine Viper would come here and challenge it at the very least.

I'm helping to educate prospective consumers.

True, there are many AT on Ninja, but this is the only one I'm familiar with so here it is.

P.s. And since this is your second post of this nature, I question your real motivations.

Peter2150 

In the sense of fair and balanced, I am not sure what is going on in this thread is all that ethical either. If you are truly trying to warn people about the dangers of AT's then there are a lot of them out there. Why not review all the one's on Ninja's site. Why just Viper. It's almost like you have some kind of personal agenda, which calls into question your objectivity. Also from the timing of release of their recommendations, you either are on the inside, have a contact on the inside or have some way of getting info almost immediately. Not the highest standards of eithical conduct in my opinion. Pete PS No I don't use the autotraders, cause I don't like them myself.

There is no fair or balanced when predator types are involved . You see , its fair to say that all of these types of vendors or " educators " have no remorse if they sell or lease or rent you their ideas and "you cant make them work " so the balance is totally in their favor . Its too bad that the uninformed have to lose a fortune or anything for that matter to learn that easy money doesnt exist .

Eric j 

There is no fair or balanced when predator types are involved . You see , its fair to say that all of these types of vendors or " educators " have no remorse if they sell or lease or rent you their ideas and "you cant make them work " so the balance is totally in their favor . Its too bad that the uninformed have to lose a fortune or anything for that matter to learn that easy money doesn't exist .

I agree Eric.

But doesn't having ethics cut both ways?

In the case of Viper Trading Systems, they only portray the occasions when the products have a win and never a loss. My email box is full of hype and promotion with video and all when these guys lay claim to winning trades. It leads the unsuspecting reader to think this stuff is an ATM, when, if you look at the hard data as pictured in this thread, these so called "tools" are consistent losers.

Years back, the tobacco industry had everyone believing cigarettes were good and hip--a life enhancer--when they very well knew the product was a killer. It took a whistle blower to expose the truth and now the public is much better off because of that.

Although not a perfect analogy, I feel the same thing is being done in this forum and thread, albeit to a much smaller but more focused audience.

If I'm wrong and off base, let's have Charles Boyle, Gary Donahoo and Rich Staition, (who I'm sure read this thread with great interest) come here and refute me and what I've presented.

Eric j 

There is no fair or balanced when predator types are involved . You see , its fair to say that all of these types of vendors or " educators " have no remorse if they sell or lease or rent you their ideas and "you cant make them work " so the balance is totally in their favor . Its too bad that the uninformed have to lose a fortune or anything for that matter to learn that easy money doesnt exist .

Hi Eric j

Lets be a bit fair here. Those that think there is such a thing will lose money no matter what. Ask yourself, how anyone can be foolish enough to fall for the Nigerian Scam letters, but many do.

When it comes to trading, there are two big if's. 1) Does it work, and 2) Can I make it work. In the first category, I remember a dude selling a manual system for $20000. Promised the moon. I told him no way I'd spend that on an system I couldn't try. He then tried to get me to give him $2000 for a month, and I still said no. Finally we settled on a one week trial, for $200. That I went for out of curiosity. He sent it to me, and gave me his current signals. When I loaded up, there was no way, I could match his signals to the screen. I called to ask, and he said he'd lost that data. End of that story.

In the no. 2 category, I know a fellow, and subscribed to his service. It worked, and I could paper trade it fine. But the risks it entailed just didn't fit me, and I could never trade it.

So there are these two issues.

So in many way's the Viper guy's are better then many. Some insist on you giving them thousands of dollars to find out it doesn't work, or you can't make it work. The viper guy's will give you a week free trial, and then you go monthly, so you can give it up after a month.

Also they plainly tell you don't run it in the blind, but run it in conjunction with what the market may be telling you . For example if the market has a huge run, the next day may well be consolidation, and don't try and run it. At least in the other thread, Zoe insisted that wasn't valid and you should run it all the time.

I just don't see these guy's as nearly as bad as they are being made out here, and there are others that are really bad, and nothing is said.

hey guys,
maybe we can testdrive + report more of those Autotrader from other vendors out there if someone has them available.

i dont think its meant bad or personal against a special company - its just showing how it really is after a backtest with a special product, theire rules + settings.

and our forum is still free + independend - no adds - no industry-partners - no one to take care for - but the truth.

Peter2150 

I just don't see these guy's as nearly as bad as they are being made out here.

The results speak for themselves. Some may think they suck and others, like you, may think otherwise.

The fact is the backtest results in this thread are set with parameters EXACTLY ACCORDING TO THE GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY VIPER in an email to subscribers and confirmed in their webinars.

The only one spinning things here is you, Peter. If you think there are other vendors who are worse than Viper, go ahead and start a thread for the benefit of the community instead of poking imaginary holes in this one.

max-td 

hey guys, maybe we can testdrive + report more of those Autotrader out there if someone has them available. i dont think its meant bad or personal against a special company - its just showing how it is after a backtest with a special product, theire rules + settings. and our forum is still free - no adds - no industry-partners - no one to take care for - but the truth.

Max, that is exactly what I have done here without bias, spin or prejudice.

There are additional instruments to test and I will post those results as soon as I am able.

Peter2150 

Also they plainly tell you don't run it in the blind, but run it in conjunction with what the market may be telling you . For example if the market has a huge run, the next day may well be consolidation, and don't try and run it. At least in the other thread, Zoe insisted that wasn't valid and you should run it all the time.

So the Viper guys say their autotrading systems should be used with price action? How do you run an AT while watching the price action? Run an ATM strat with it? I am confused about that but I am not a strat guy so I don't know how that works.

In an effort to be fair and balanced per Peter's request, one could always go back and filter out the consolidation days as no trade days. Zoe, would we still be seeing losing days if we did that?

But then that brings up an interesting point. The Viper guys tell us we shouldn't trade on Z days if we are trading in conjunction with what the market is telling us. If you can spot Z days every week or month then you don't need Viper anyway. They are assuming the trader already understands which way the market is going.

On the other hand, we all have to find a style that fits our personalities. For you Peter, this Viper style may fit everything you like because I noticed you acknowledged it a few weeks back as well. WTG to keep to a system and not change anything.

I think this happens with everyone. We don't realize that we are actually paying more attention to S/R levels, breakouts, and trendline breaks, etc., than the indicators/ systems. If we don't take a step back, we may think its the indicators we are using that are telling us when to get in, but in actuality, we just got better at reading price. We manipulated the system of indicators to work for us with price action and trick our minds into thinking that they really work when they are on our charts. In the end though, we may realize (at least I did) that most successful trades we make occur when we were watching something other than the indicator or system itself.

I guess if we know that we tricked ourselves into making a commercial system work for us, then it isn't so bad. I think the bad part is seeing someone successfully sell a product they know is faulty. As a result, some feel quite passionately that these types should be exposed for the snakes they are. I don't feel that passionately about it because I know it when I see it. Many of the uneducated or ignorant will throw money at it without thinking, so I tend to passively believe that those types may need to just pay for the product and learn the hard way because no one will convince them otherwise. I don't think the Viper guys are ultimately targeting knowledgeable guys like Peter. I mean it seems like you knew what you were getting when you bought it and are making it work for you.

Dragon 

In an effort to be fair and balanced per Peter's request, one could always go back and filter out the consolidation days as no trade days. Zoe, would we still be seeing losing days if we did that?

With these new Scalper scripts--which are the only ones Viper is now supporting--there is no guidance to filter out chop. The scripts are to run during the recommended times except for FOMC and Non Farm Payroll news days.

Another member asked me to post yesterday's results for ViperScalperTF. The parameters were set exactly as recommended by Rich Staiton and set forth in the above post on this instrument.

Viper AT Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the …

TF hit the max loss for the day.