Mordecai 

Apologies, I was being a bit flippant there. I did read the books and made a good faith effort to extract something useful, but psychology stuff doesn't resonate for me unless it comes with practical fixes I can implement. Like you I can recognize when I'm in tilt, and the practical fix I'm using is to trade a different account that I've designated for revenge trading. Speaking of which, my Apex revenge account has been doing quite well. Last night I hit the profit target. One more day of trading micros and I'll have another funded PA account. It's one of my better looking equity curves, although I seem to be missing a few days (probably from reinstalling Ninja Trader on a new laptop). Equity curve revenge acct Sadly the substitute Leeloo revenge account I got a few days ago didn't last long. I can't remember what set me off, but I traded it into oblivion last night. After getting the dumb trades out of my system I went on to do really well in my funded PA.

I really appreciate you.

See, my friend I am doing the same thing you are and I'm 7 plus years in.

I went weeks doing well then in the last week lost it all. And added lost, added lost.

Revenge trading is a good name for it because that's what it feels like.

You would think time fixes but it absolutely doesn't.

Unless we figure this out we are doomed to repeat it.

Jared Tendler's "The Trading Game" does take psychology to a practical level. Never seen anything like it. I was surprised to find I read and studied well over a year ago and I still end up blowing up.

And me like you can trade very well... until something snaps and all I can do is enter and see risk risk risk.

P.S. this is a personal belief, but having a revenge account I believe does you a disservice by reinforcing bad behaviors. Everything I try to do is to eliminate anything extra. I have tried the same switching to SIM. Just a thought.

Cheers

Ru trading a system or discretionary. Would guess ur discretionary

Sandpaddict 

I really appreciate you. See, my friend I am doing the same thing you are and I'm 7 plus years in. I went weeks doing well then in the last week lost it all. And added lost, added lost. Revenge trading is a good name for it because that's what it feels like. You would think time fixes but it absolutely doesn't. Unless we figure this out we are doomed to repeat it. Jared Tendler's "The Trading Game" does take psychology to a practical level. Never seen anything like it. I was surprised to find I read and studied well over a year ago and I still end up blowing up. And me like you can trade very well... until something snaps and all I can do is enter and see risk risk risk. P.S. this is a personal belief, but having a revenge account I believe does you a disservice by reinforcing bad behaviors. Everything I try to do is to eliminate anything extra. I have tried the same switching to SIM. Just a thought. Cheers

Thanks mate. I'll look into "The Trading Game". I do read a lot and am always on the lookout for useful material.

I've been at this about 6 years myself. Trading psychology didn't pop up onto my radar until 2019. At that time I had been trading well in sim. So I opened a live account with $3k of my own funds. I then busted the account in about 90 minutes. That was a real shock. I thought I was 'above' the psychological issues that plagued weak-minded traders. I was humbled to realize I was one of them. Since then I've been working hard to fix the glitch in my brain. But how? As you noted, being aware of the issue isn't enough.

The revenge account is a trick I play on myself. It's not meant to allow me to indulge in bad behavior but rather to improve in circumstances where my judgement is off. How?
- It makes it earlier to recognize the times when I'm not in my 'regular' mental state. This could be the result of an unexpected loss, a windfall gain, exhaustion, or boredom.
- When I switch accounts, I still get to trade, which satisfies the impulses coming from my lizard brain. But the risk is mitigated because there's no consequence to busting a revenge account except the $27 fee.
- Without risk, I tend to trade without fear.
- In previous revenge accounts I'd trade full lots on dubious setups. But over time I've started using more reasonable trade sizing and picking better entries, and most importantly, not letting losses run just to see what happens - despite the trigger event that caused me to switch to the revenge account.
- By doing this repeatedly, my behavior in the revenge account is starting to change. My revenge trading is improving.
- In time I hope the revenge account will become just another account that I'm trading for profit.

Last Friday I made a modest profit in my Apex PA and in my Tradeday eval. But by the time the NY session was starting, I was feeling nervous and jittery about losing the week's gains, and I was skipping perfectly valid entries. Something snapped, and all I was seeing was risk, risk, risk. So I switched over to my revenge account, a $27 Leeloo eval that I picked up earlier in the day (8 contracts, $3k target). I traded this account fearlessly for the next several hours. I got it up to +$2,400 at one point and finished at +$2,010. I expect next week I'll have a different attitude toward this account as I'm not too far away from the profit target. I may need another revenge account!


Revenge acct

HiLatencyTRDR HLT 

Ru trading a system or discretionary. Would guess ur discretionary

Yes, discretionary
Hey just noticed you're from Tallahassee. I went to school there a lifetime ago!

Good trading on your plus 2000 and keep at it.

I have never had a revenge account and outside of Twitter and crypto I'm not sure any successful trader would have a use for a revenge acct. I just don't see or understand how that acct helps anything. What does it reinforce. Trading is an always on game even when not trading.

I went in the woods and drove my truck on the side of a mud hole to avoid the risk of being stuck. Then an hour later after successfully driving through 10 mud holes I decided there was a side road I wanted to take. Most if the water holes I ran thru were on the main road. Guess what. Even though I tried my best to slowly go on the edge of it my truck slid down into it. Framed immediately. Tires spinning like poo addle wheels on the Mississippi.

Most of people would think . Crap. I'm stuck. I thought holy shi*. I am still not properly assessing risk or risks in my trading! Look what I just did. I'm living risky. I'm trading risky. This is a big loss situation.

1. It was.a side road. A new mkt difficult even to get another trucks help
2. My over confidence made me not think in an emotional bad decision. I want to go there now ..
3. I never said what if I get stuck out here and I prepared?

I could go on and on.

Fearless is how you make money. But the trick is balancing it with not being stupidly fearless or a daredevil!
Good luck I hope you make your goals. Do not get stuck

I would also like to add that I will not be attempting going thru muddy water holes solo anymore. I learned my lesson for the most part. This is much the opposite of trading where we all do the same stupid things over and over again. It should be just like driving into mud puddles. How many times are you going to do the same thing! And lose!!

Imagine the stupidity the absurdity if every day I drive into those same puddles and got stuck and lost!

People would laugh and say you should stop driving off road
You should stop finding new places to drive off road
You should stop pouring all your money into new trucks to off road

It's so simple to see and understand when it's tangible and it's lived and felt
Unlike the mkts which seem almost like a video game at times.

Don't let being disconnected from reality keep you from understanding and feeling the risks involved.

HiLatencyTRDR HLT 

Good trading on your plus 2000 and keep at it. I have never had a revenge account and outside of Twitter and crypto I'm not sure any successful trader would have a use for a revenge acct. I just don't see or understand how that acct helps anything. What does it reinforce. Trading is an always on game even when not trading. I went in the woods and drove my truck on the side of a mud hole to avoid the risk of being stuck. Then an hour later after successfully driving through 10 mud holes I decided there was a side road I wanted to take. Most if the water holes I ran thru were on the main road. Guess what. Even though I tried my best to slowly go on the edge of it my truck slid down into it. Framed immediately. Tires spinning like poo addle wheels on the Mississippi. Most of people would think . Crap. I'm stuck. I thought holy shi*. I am still not properly assessing risk or risks in my trading! Look what I just did. I'm living risky. I'm trading risky. This is a big loss situation. 1. It was.a side road. A new mkt difficult even to get another trucks help 2. My over confidence made me not think in an emotional bad decision. I want to go there now .. 3. I never said what if I get stuck out here and I prepared? I could go on and on. Fearless is how you make money. But the trick is balancing it with not being stupidly fearless or a daredevil! Good luck I hope you make your goals. Do not get stuck

Thanks. I appreciate your comments and agree it's not helpful to reinforce bad habits. I started using the term 'revenge account' a bit tongue in cheek, but I hope my previous post to Sandpaddict explains the thinking behind it, and how it's meant to improve the way I handle myself when I might otherwise trade a live account into the dust.

FWIW, my revenge trading is getting better. The Leeloo account I started on Friday just hit the profit target. 8 days more trading micros for a tick, and I'll have a 3rd PA account.

Passed another one - this time with Tradeday.

Tradeday

Mordecai 

Thanks mate. I'll look into "The Trading Game". I do read a lot and am always on the lookout for useful material. I've been at this about 6 years myself. Trading psychology didn't pop up onto my radar until 2019. At that time I had been trading well in sim. So I opened a live account with $3k of my own funds. I then busted the account in about 90 minutes. That was a real shock. I thought I was 'above' the psychological issues that plagued weak-minded traders. I was humbled to realize I was one of them. Since then I've been working hard to fix the glitch in my brain. But how? As you noted, being aware of the issue isn't enough. The revenge account is a trick I play on myself. It's not meant to allow me to indulge in bad behavior but rather to improve in circumstances where my judgement is off. How? - It makes it earlier to recognize the times when I'm not in my 'regular' mental state. This could be the result of an unexpected loss, a windfall gain, exhaustion, or boredom. - When I switch accounts, I still get to trade, which satisfies the impulses coming from my lizard brain. But the risk is mitigated because there's no consequence to busting a revenge account except the $27 fee. - Without risk, I tend to trade without fear. - In previous revenge accounts I'd trade full lots on dubious setups. But over time I've started using more reasonable trade sizing and picking better entries, and most importantly, not letting losses run just to see what happens - despite the trigger event that caused me to switch to the revenge account. - By doing this repeatedly, my behavior in the revenge account is starting to change. My revenge trading is improving. - In time I hope the revenge account will become just another account that I'm trading for profit. Last Friday I made a modest profit in my Apex PA and in my Tradeday eval. But by the time the NY session was starting, I was feeling nervous and jittery about losing the week's gains, and I was skipping perfectly valid entries. Something snapped, and all I was seeing was risk, risk, risk. So I switched over to my revenge account, a $27 Leeloo eval that I picked up earlier in the day (8 contracts, $3k target). I traded this account fearlessly for the next several hours. I got it up to +$2,400 at one point and finished at +$2,010. I expect next week I'll have a different attitude toward this account as I'm not too far away from the profit target. I may need another revenge account! Revenge acct

I haven't been on in a few days.

All I can say is WOW! I feel like we are kindred. Your answer was full of "yes, that's me-s!" I started in 2015-16 seriously, well or so I thought. So around the same time.

Some great information in there that I now can say completely changed my mind about some things.

One, the "revenge account". I see what you mean now. I like the idea, I really do. Terrible name! Lol Your still trying to do your best you just went to a lower damage account sort of speak.

Secondly, the account is like $27??? Always? To me that sounds like a fantastic amount to risk. I can do alot more damage then that even in very small accounts. With the one absolute caveat that "ONE a DAY" and you have to wait till the next day, otherwise I'd just throw money at it making it no better than any other failing strategy.

I am having AH HA after AH HA the last few weeks. Thanks for some more.

Hope to hear more from you and hope to watch you become consistent 😊

Sandpaddict 

I haven't been on in a few days. All I can say is WOW! I feel like we are kindred. Your answer was full of "yes, that's me-s!" I started in 2015-16 seriously, well or so I thought. So around the same time. Some great information in there that I now can say completely changed my mind about some things. One, the "revenge account". I see what you mean now. I like the idea, I really do. Terrible name! Lol Your still trying to do your best you just went to a lower damage account sort of speak. Secondly, the account is like $27??? Always? To me that sounds like a fantastic amount to risk. I can do alot more damage then that even in very small accounts. With the one absolute caveat that "ONE a DAY" and you have to wait till the next day, otherwise I'd just throw money at it making it no better than any other failing strategy. I am having AH HA after AH HA the last few weeks. Thanks for some more. Hope to hear more from you and hope to watch you become consistent 😊

Thanks for your kind comments! The account I was referring to was the Leeloo $50k evaluation account. Leeloo (and Apex) often have 80-85% discounts. There are a few places you can find the discount codes:
-Canadian Futures Trader's website (https://canadianfuturestrader.ca/)
- Mighty Ox Trading on        
- Treasury Futures Traders on        
- Some prop firm groups on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/proptrader
https://www.facebook.com/groups/791196662234211

Since my last post I converted two of the $27 Leeloo revenge accounts into funded accounts.

That left me at the start of the week without a revenge account.

On Monday I started trading my funded Apex account, which I had carefully traded up to +$1750 over two weeks. My first trade at the London open (short ES) hit my TP but didn’t fill, then moved the other way toward my SL. I moved my SL thinking it was just a minor pullback, with awesome profits to come when the bear trend resumed. But price spiked up until it triggered the $500 daily loss limit I set up in Rithmic to keep me from exactly this kind of rubbish trading. There was slippage, and the realized loss was actually $668. The slippage made me furious. I went into Rithmic and disabled the loss limit so I could get back the $168. But in the next 30 minutes I lost another $1,100, wiping out all the profit in my account. At that point I realized I was reverting to the old pattern, and I stopped trading.

Later I came back for the NY session, after my mind had cleared. I traded late into the session and made back half of the loss.

The next day I set up a new revenge account with Ticktick Trader. I don't care much for Ticktick but their $65 fee includes Bookmap and level 2 data, which is a real bargain if you're playing around with Bookmap. I bounced between the funded account and the revenge account, and made modest progress. I continued on Wednesday and Thursday, fully recovering Monday's loss.

On Friday I was nervous trading the funded account because of NFP. I've lost so many accounts on NFP Fridays. This time I decided to go ahead and trade, but with micros instead of minis, with the aim of maybe making some coffee money. I ended up making $160 (30+ points in ES). So I ended the week with profitable in the Apex account.

I think it's progress that I can go on tilt and not bust an account. I'm not sure I'll ever kill the compulsion to revenge trade, but I think I can achieve success as a trader if I can just manage it a bit better.

Next week I'll be trading funded accounts from Apex, Tradeday and Leeloo. I did poorly enough in the Ticktick account that I can't trade it any more. If it busts, Ticktick will cut off the Bookmap data until the account renews, so I have to line up another revenge account. But I don't see any good sales happening right now.

I'm posting the equity curve from my Apex account. I tilted around trade 115 and recovered around trade 250.