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I don't think you are wrong at all I think we all want the same thing just a different way.
I also think it is hard to compare the US to other countries, we are a gun country this country was founded on the average citizen having the same exact type of weapons as the army. Yes firearms have changed a lot since then but I think we should be thankful for that. I would assume when you went to war you were happy you had an M16A1 instead of a Kentucky rifle.
Our 2nd amendment was ment to be a type of check and balance for the government. It was never about hunting or sporting it is about protecting our freedom so we don't end up like Venezuela.
I think something does need to be done, i think its horrible what is happening to these innocent men women and children. To me it seems more like a mental issue and a cultural issue.
Im not nearly as old as many of you on here but it seems like in the past we didn't have these huge huge killings and maybe it was because we didn't have the types of communications we do today but something change. The AR/M16 platform has been around since vietnam. What has changed recently to make these types of things a common issue?
One of the reason i think this is such a hot topic is because no one knows how to stop it, some want to take all the guns away and think that will work. Well I live in ohio and heroin is illegal and we go through narcan like its candy. If we can't stop drugs how can we stop guns. Yeah of couse there will be less of them but if you really want one you would be able to get one. Just like drugs, i can't go to walmart and get heroin but if i really wanted it I could go downtown and grab some.
Another issue is we can no longer have open conversations about ideas. If you believe one thing and say it to someone who believes something else instead of having a nice talk about it like this, everyone goes to the extremes and no one (either side) will listen to what the other says.
I use to do a ton of trade shows and we always used this one guy ( he was black) and we disagreed on almost everything BUT after hours and days of speaking with each other we both started to see the other side and would actually believe and understand what the other thinks and wants. THIS is what we need, more conversation and eventually everyone will find a common ground. We need more facts and more ideas.
Thank you for your service and opinion,
and to those who say civilians cant fight a military, look at iraq no outside forces have ever conquered those lands, many have tried and many have died over it. Also i would say "most" active military would not fire upon its own citizens but they are also human and I'm sure some would.
you might not be able to kill as many people with a knife/bat/ect but what if the vegas shooter instead of shooting threw IED's out his window. Everyone is one google search away of knowing how to make these devices.
-P
"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
I agree completely. This is a terrific post, and other than agreeing, I don't know what the solution will be. I do know there will be a solution, because there always is -- eventually.
So I'm glad I posted on this after all.
One thing I always want make clear when my having been in the Army at that time comes up: although I was in Infantry, by one of those quirks of fate and the bureaucracy, I wasn't sent to Nam, and spent my time in the war at a desk job. I don't want to convey any impression of war experience when there so were many who went and didn't come back, or came back with parts of their bodies that didn't work well any more, or were missing. It was a hard time for the country then.
We got through that, and we will get through this.
I logged on to post a screenshot of my latest trade in my journal, then saw this discussion and decided to step in here instead.
If I’m not mistaken, there’s little correlation between mental health and violence. It’s too simple to say that if someone kills a bunch of people they’re crazy, so focus on the crazy people. Most if not all of our recent mass shooters functioned fairly normally in society, held jobs, and could pass a background check for guns.
I don’t think it is a mental health issue, I think it’s an ease of access to guns issue. There is an unequivocal correlation between the number of firearm death in the US and the number of firearms. Plain as day.
I’m on record in this forum as an avid gun owner, including numerous politically incorrect rifles, but I’ve also stated that I think it’s time we make harder to get these kinds of guns (and I’d probably include semi auto handguns as well).
However I do not think that will happen. I do not see any decrease in the number of gun deaths per year in this country, including mass shootings, in my lifetime. Pandora has been let out of the box. There are too many guns in circulation, and the gun industry is very powerful.
What’s it going to take? I’ll tell you: a whole lot more people burying their kids. That’s what will get people’s attention. Until that happens, expect the numbers to stay the same, including several double digit fatality mass shootings a year.
Some of the arguments put forth by the die-hard pro gun side are downright fallacious. There’s just no other way to put it. The best being that a good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun. Yes it’s happened a few times but I think you can attribute that more to dumb luck. In some situations (the Atlanta courthouse shooting in 2005 and the Baltimore Navy shooting in 09 or 10) the good guy with a gun made things worse.
The record is clear that most mass shootings are stopped by unarmed citizens or the shooter himself.
As for the argument that they can make a homemade bomb or something like that, I’m not swayed. Not many of our disenfranchised, violence-prone men are going to go through the learning curve of that. They want to kill quickly and easily, and there’s no better way to do it than a semi-auto gun and some 15 to 30 round magazines. And they want to kill up close and relish in their victims terror (Las Vegas being an exception... I think that was more of the shooting fish in a barrel thrill). The bombers are all politically motivated. McVeigh, the Tsarnav brothers, the Unibomber. They killed from a distance.
To buy a house, it can take weeks to get approval for the loan. The banks going to scrutinize the hell out of you, they’re not just going to hand over their money to anybody. Buying a gun takes like 20 minutes. I love guns and all, keep one on me or in arms reach nearly all day, but that’s just messed up.
I'd have to disagree with the mental health part, how many people are out there depressed but are great at there job? just because they aren't in a straight jacket doesn't mean they don't have issues.
I hope it doesn't come down to that,
I agree they could have a better way to purchase guns. I'd be for getting rid of the gun show loop hole with the exception of transferring firearms to family members when someone passes away.
-P
"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
This would be a step. Plus just make it harder to buy a gun. For one of these guys, he would have failed his background check, but there was a delay in getting it back and so the dealer legally sold it to him anyway. Simple stuff like fixing this would help.
If we take more steps, there will be less shooting.
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I'd like to thank @bobwest for posting what he did, despite fears of being shunned, and @MiniP & @Pariah Carey for their replies. Some good thoughtful posts on a subject that rarely gets such treatment. I know I'm responsible for pouring Gasoline on this fire/thread but I do find it an extremely interesting subject, and am not just trolling. Having spent the first 20+ years of my life in England - where I knew nobody who owned a gun, and the last 20+ years in Texas - where everybody owns a gun, I have seen two very different perspectives.
@Pariah Carey Thanks for your great post. Just wanted to add my 2c.
I used to blame it on the NRA and the gun lobby, but I've come to realize that's a convenient excuse - we should blame it on the 1M+ membership of NRA. Every individual who supports the NRA needs to be called out for this. I'm all for forming an association or recreational group of like-minded people who love to hunt, but supporting an organization that is actively undermining our democracy and the safety of our children is just outright irresponsible.
Yeah, the worst thing about this argument is that it gives you the false dichotomy that it will cause an increase in bomb users. No, whoever's capable of and intent on creating a bomb and deploying it has always been capable of and intent on doing so. It's not as though people stripped of their guns will suddenly go hunting with bombs.
Besides, even if this argument were true, it's still a good thing - bombs are more likely to be detected and safely detonated by law enforcement before they go off, they leave a more detectable paper trail, and it's not suitable for repeated use (e.g. Tsarnev brothers managed to toss 1 bomb into the mix during their gunfight, and it was completely harmless).
And even if I buy in to their fantasy that mass shooters will now turn to bombs which are somehow much more effective, then okay... these bombs must be so effective, so we'll still be fine because there will be civilians carrying bombs around with them who can take down the bombers. Or we can arm every school teacher with a bomb instead of a gun because they are supposedly so effective.
i think if they made the FBI check system better and more up to date this would solve a lot of these problems. Felons already can't have guns but the problem is there could be a felon with the same name as you and your a law abiding citizen and he gets mistaken for you.
I would like to say i think its a great thing a handful of people can have a constructive conversation and not hurl insults at each other. Hope this continues.
-P
"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
Sad it is, but giving up rights to guns will NOT fix it. My family has been in the bail industry for over 60 years and we have watched the court and detention systems slowly deteriorate at a disturbing rate. American's keep voting more liberal judges and politicians in every year. These same liberal judges practice catch and release, mass pardons, sancturay cities, no border control,etc., etc.
You peeps want a system to curtail gun violence? What system, Americans have given it away to the criminals.