Howard Roark 

If I quit day trading, I suppose I will still be participating in the markets in some way. Most likely swing trading. I probably won't get rich quick, but maybe I'll get rich slowly. Maybe I'll also find some other vocation or career path that will be better for me. It's possible that trying to get rich quick is what have prevented my success so far. Just think about where I'd be today if I started trading far more conservatively 10 years ago. I admire your persistence. Good luck on your quest!

What is suppose to change with Swing Trading? its all the same.

Your job is to make money every year day trading. PERIOD. There is no time period when that might happen.
The problem you having is your seeking confirmation to find another trader who is making money yearly. No need to search, they will not give you their edge anyway. No need to search further, ticks move everyday, so someone is making money.

So stop looking for help and just trade the charts. That is the best you can do.

Noone will ever help you or I. So it is what it is. We are ALL on our own. And noone will provide a track record of success, so you are on your own.

Howard Roark 

Hello guys, After over 10 years of pursuing the goal of becoming a consistent profitable day trader I'm finally considering throwing in the towel for good and moving on. Quick summary: - I've been a full time trader 3 times, but invariably had to get back to the work force as I couldn't make ends meet. The first time I was totally clueless. Probably the second time, too. The third time I was in a much better spot, but still way undercapitalized. - Virtually all my free time and money spent pursuing trading studying, researching and actual trading. - Paid a firm to create a custom statistical application based on my methodology which I use for my trading. - Tons of back-testing. - Hundreds of live trading days. I don't have the exact number, but I wouldn't be surprised if I exceeded 1000 by now in total. There have been some breaks along the way and I've sort of given up earlier, but the markets have always sucked me back in. For the last 5 or 6 years I've been focusing on essentially the same method and have not been jumping from one thing to the other. I've had a very focused approach and I've felt I made progress, but maybe I'm fooling myself. Results? I'm at a point where the market feels like a very familiar place and I pretty much have a good grasp of what's possible and most likely on any given day. I've had really good periods where I've both tripled and quadrupled my account over a period of months with few losing days. But invariably, the drawdown comes and it tends to accelerate and I just liquidate my account before it's all gone. Then I start over again a bit later and tend to do well early on, but the same pattern tends to repeat. If I never had any success I'm sure I'd given up sooner, but the fact that I've had glimpses of success along the way and feel that I'm able to read the markets supported by statistical data have given me enough hope that maybe I have something worthwhile and shouldn't give up just yet. Why give up? One of the things that have been weighing me recently is the opportunity cost of pursuing this. All the time spent maintaining a trading business and actually trading is considerable. And that's time that could be spent doing something else that may be more worthwhile. Sure, I love the markets and all that, but at the end of the day the goal is to make money. It's quite possible that if I cut my leverage by one tenth I would be consistently profitable, but I'm just not sure it's worth my time to be honest. Might as well invest or swing trade instead, then. Maybe the problem is simply that I'm undercapitalized and expecting too much. I've heard of people who spent around 10 years or even more before they finally nailed it down, so maybe it's premature to give up after all this time, but the years fly by fast as you get older and it would suck to spend another 5 years and still be at the same place and having closed other opportunities for good. While it's true that some might nail it down after 10 years, I'm sure there are also stories of people who spend 20 years and still didn't make it. Not sure what I want with this post, but it's good getting it off my chest as nobody in my real life can relate. Maybe newbies can also read it and consider it a word of warning about how difficult this really is.

Sounds like you were way over-leveraged!

I trick I heard is to consistently withdraw profits (especially when DOUBLING your account, geez!). You can't lose what you don't bet. If you weren't that over-leveraged, I' picturing your results would look completely different.

I know this is an old post. Are you currently using the same strategy?

I saw you also were from Norway, so I dug in your posts a bit, haha.

Maybe I'm stupid, but how do I get to see when people have quoted me and access the post? I got a notification I was quoted, but when I click it I just come to my profile page. Only reason I knew it was this post is because I got an e-mail notification as well.

kummi90 

Sounds like you were way over-leveraged! I trick I heard is to consistently withdraw profits (especially when DOUBLING your account, geez!). You can't lose what you don't bet. If you weren't that over-leveraged, I' picturing your results would look completely different. I know this is an old post. Are you currently using the same strategy? I saw you also were from Norway, so I dug in your posts a bit, haha.

Leverage definitely is a factor. I'm still trading the same strategy. Had a pretty good year so far and have pulled home some big wins.

I still kind of gave up on trading, but the results this year have made me wonder if I might just not have a chance anyway. I'm still working a day job and trading is more like a hobby that I still spend most of my waking hours on.

You're a trader, too? I don't know any other traders in Norway.

Howard Roark 

Maybe I'm stupid, but how do I get to see when people have quoted me and access the post? I got a notification I was quoted, but when I click it I just come to my profile page. Only reason I knew it was this post is because I got an e-mail notification as well.

Nope, not stupid. I told Mike about this and he said that this behaviour comes from the fact that you/we are not Elite members.... See post below and his answer:

NexusFi site changelog and issues/problem reporting It looks like this, even after I have been quoted. Where should I see where I have been quoted? nexus2

Howard Roark 

Maybe I'm stupid, but how do I get to see when people have quoted me and access the post? I got a notification I was quoted, but when I click it I just come to my profile page. Only reason I knew it was this post is because I got an e-mail notification as well. Leverage definitely is a factor. I'm still trading the same strategy. Had a pretty good year so far and have pulled home some big wins. I still kind of gave up on trading, but the results this year have made me wonder if I might just not have a chance anyway. I'm still working a day job and trading is more like a hobby that I still spend most of my waking hours on. You're a trader, too? I don't know any other traders in Norway.

I just click on the email link, it seems to be easier, and takes me straight to the post.

Yeah, I'm dabbling in trading, mostly energies, WTI oil and natural gas. Not doing too hot, but I'm changing (futures) from tastytrade to a broker with more personal customer service. A smaller broker, and futures round trip cost a bit more, but they provide research, round-up and personal customer service.

Been interested in trading since I read a lot of ebooks as a teen, Alexander Elder and the likes. But I didn't feel ready, emotionally and financially, until late 20's.
I still run options strategy, but am focusing on oil and natural gas futures.

Dmonz 

Nope, not stupid. I told Mike about this and he said that this behaviour comes from the fact that you/we are not Elite members.... See post below and his answer: NexusFi site changelog and issues/problem reporting It looks like this, even after I have been quoted. Where should I see where I have been quoted? nexus2

That's what I suspected. Thanks.

To be honest, this is working against the desired outcome for me personally. I don't feel like paying to get basic functionality on a message board. Most message boards are free.

kummi90 

I just click on the email link, it seems to be easier, and takes me straight to the post. Yeah, I'm dabbling in trading, mostly energies, WTI oil and natural gas. Not doing too hot, but I'm changing (futures) from tastytrade to a broker with more personal customer service. A smaller broker, and futures round trip cost a bit more, but they provide research, round-up and personal customer service. Been interested in trading since I read a lot of ebooks as a teen, Alexander Elder and the likes. But I didn't feel ready, emotionally and financially, until late 20's. I still run options strategy, but am focusing on oil and natural gas futures.

Cool. How long have you been doing it?

To be honest (and this goes to anyone else reading, too), I would forget about the idea of day trading for riches. It's simply too difficult and time consuming.

I have my 10 + years of experience and 10.000 of hours under the belt and it's only these last few years I seem to be doing okay. Especially this year.

If anyone wants to actively trade, I think swing trading or day trading off higher timeframes is the way to go. It's all about R/R. With my current approach, I'm mostly swing trading intraday. For example, yesterday I bought near the Globex Low and rode that trade for 80 ES points or so with an initial risk of 4 ES points.

Most people who day trade get stuck traded noise with a poor R/R which ultimately have a negative expectancy. The way I structure my trading I can still do very well with a win rate as low as 30 %.

My sticking point is range bound days that don't move anywhere, but I'm working on it.

Howard Roark 

Cool. How long have you been doing it? To be honest (and this goes to anyone else reading, too), I would forget about the idea of day trading for riches. It's simply too difficult and time consuming. I have my 10 + years of experience and 10.000 of hours under the belt and it's only these last few years I seem to be doing okay. Especially this year. If anyone wants to actively trade, I think swing trading or day trading off higher timeframes is the way to go. It's all about R/R. With my current approach, I'm mostly swing trading intraday. For example, yesterday I bought near the Globex Low and rode that trade for 80 ES points or so with an initial risk of 4 ES points. Most people who day trade get stuck traded noise with a poor R/R which ultimately have a negative expectancy. The way I structure my trading I can still do very well with a win rate as low as 30 %. My sticking point is range bound days that don't move anywhere, but I'm working on it.

Options, maybe 2.5 years now. Futures trading, three months only.

Oh I hear ya. Day trading can be taxing, emotionally and timewise. Though I am convinced the savvy trader can systematically extract a small sum, then scale up later. I also think some traders are better fit for different time-frames. Some traders can't sleep while having a position on, others would be stressed by smaller time-frame environments. Fining your style, and sticking to it, is key.
The brokers I'm switching to favor swing trading.

That's true. Do you think one can use ATR or something similar to gauge whether or not one is positioned correctly? I definitely think my stop-losses are too tight, noise is definitely killing me. I gauged the stop-loss based on the contract I was trading /CL and my account size, NOT the market I was trading in. I wanted to time markets and catch waves perfectly. I was ego-driven ("rather be correct than make profitable trades"), not process and result driven! Thus my really bad win%.
And I trade scared.

For some time now, I have occasionally observed huge rallies, and being scared of jumping in too late. Telling myself "If I jump in now, I'm too late." And I tell myself that 2-5x, all while watching the price continue to move in the same direction. I've observed myself lose out on big sums.
Finally I saw a rally. Friday 30th in oil, 3 pm Oslo time (9 am NY time). Saw it a bit late, but jumped in 3:07. Then when price moved against me, I panic sold. This was after taking a beating, losing 4 trades in a row. I was scared. Liquidating this position as well. Only to have the price drift slowly and calmly in my original direction.

I know what I'm doing wrong, but not how to systematically mitigate it and still keep control of my emotions. Perhaps step back to 30 min, and scale to micro contracts.

Wow, risking 4R to gain 80R is a pretty wild R/R. Only small win rate needed, but one can imagined you're getting whip-sawed often? Are you waiting for huge vol spikes and trying to ride the wave?

kummi90 

Options, maybe 2.5 years now. Futures trading, three months only. Oh I hear ya. Day trading can be taxing, emotionally and timewise. Though I am convinced the savvy trader can systematically extract a small sum, then scale up later. I also think some traders are better fit for different time-frames. Some traders can't sleep while having a position on, others would be stressed by smaller time-frame environments. Fining your style, and sticking to it, is key. The brokers I'm switching to favor swing trading. That's true. Do you think one can use ATR or something similar to gauge whether or not one is positioned correctly? I definitely think my stop-losses are too tight, noise is definitely killing me. I gauged the stop-loss based on the contract I was trading /CL and my account size, NOT the market I was trading in. I wanted to time markets and catch waves perfectly. I was ego-driven ("rather be correct than make profitable trades"), not process and result driven! Thus my really bad win%. And I trade scared. For some time now, I have occasionally observed huge rallies, and being scared of jumping in too late. Telling myself "If I jump in now, I'm too late." And I tell myself that 2-5x, all while watching the price continue to move in the same direction. I've observed myself lose out on big sums. Finally I saw a rally. Friday 30th in oil, 3 pm Oslo time (9 am NY time). Saw it a bit late, but jumped in 3:07. Then when price moved against me, I panic sold. This was after taking a beating, losing 4 trades in a row. I was scared. Liquidating this position as well. Only to have the price drift slowly and calmly in my original direction. I know what I'm doing wrong, but not how to systematically mitigate it and still keep control of my emotions. Perhaps step back to 30 min, and scale to micro contracts. Wow, risking 4R to gain 80R is a pretty wild R/R. Only small win rate needed, but one can imagined you're getting whip-sawed often? Are you waiting for huge vol spikes and trying to ride the wave?

Well, that's the dream for most. Extract a small daily sum consistently and scale. It's much easier said than done, though. I'm repeating what I said in the prior thread, but I think it's easier to structure an approach where you aim for a larger move while keeping risk small.

My goal is to enter around major swing highs and lows. Simplistically, my stop is too tight if it's placed below the swing high or above the swing low. You should track the small oscillations back and forth. That's the noise. If your goal is the move from A to B, you need to stay out of the noisy part in between. If you got whipsawed on a small oscillation your stop was too tight. Of course, there are situations where you can't enter with low risk. One can always skip those trades.

The bulk of my method haven't changed that much over the last 5 years, although I'm still improving and learning. However, it's only these last few years I'm able to actually trade it successfully (to some extent) by running winners all the way to target and actually cutting losses short ruthlessly. I think this is the part that takes time for most people.

You really need the type of experience where you've seen it all. Studied it all. Know it all. And when the market opens, you know what to expect. Nothing surprises you. And that's the part that takes time and can't be read in a book. You simply need the experience. No shortcuts.

By the way, I used to dabble in CL ages ago, but haven't looked at it in ages either. Why CL?

I saw some guy comment that he thought it was easier for retailers to 'gain an edge' in CL compared to indices. I don't know.

From my POV, indexes are very well behaved and technical. Last time I traded crude it seemed ruthless and much less orderly than indices - frequently overshooting levels and just doing its own thing. Maybe I just didn't study it well enough.