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He said, "positive thinking will destroy your trading career".
I read this again and I realized I do this. It's naturally how I approach life. I set goals for myself and I charge along focused on completing my goals. I'm stubborn so I will keep trying until I can check off my goal.
But something he said made me suddenly realize this is a big reason as to why I'm sabotaging my results.
In fact I believe it is at the epicenter and perhaps the biggest fundamental reason as to why I am unable to achieve the results I'm hoping for.
After all when you start your trading day positively thinking, "I'm going to make xyz today."
Or your previous day you smashed it so the next day you envision another monumentus day.. or at least one that is positive.
For myself, how this manifests is I don't have a problem taking a loss, I have a problem having a losing day.
I step away when I've had a loss but when I come back I still have this "fantasy" positive image in my mind, that today will be a winning day.
So really I guess I really haven't shaken off the loss.
When I then have another loss, I say to myself I'm not reading this right so I give myself a moment or I will trade a different product.
Now if I have a loss with that product, that's it, gloves are off and I'm revenge trading. Part of my issue as well.. I watch my results.
So in conclusion, I think, if I stopped having positive thoughts, fantasies or affirmations that all is good and "I'm going to crush this today" but instead replace that attitude with something else I could handle a losing day and walk away, etc.
Now to be clear this mindset was something I think I learned as a child. It is something I've adopted to help me to cope with/survive the environment I grew up in. I've always had an uphill battle in life and this attitude is what has allowed me to overcome struggles and persevere and survive. But now I think that this "can do" attitude may be actually hindering my trading.
So can I ask, has anyone else struggled with this and what do you replace those overly positive visions/goals with when you start your trading day?
There are a lot of markers in in your writing signaling a need for professional coaching such as hoping, sabotage, stubbornness, childhood trauma, being right, and more.
With that said, you started the thread title asking about positive thoughts but by the end you've switched to overly positive. I wonder if the problem actually stems from unrealistic thoughts.
As far as revenge trading, outside of psychological investigation, you need to create a mechanical system to compensate. However, if you can't follow your trading rules (which as far as I can tell either you have no rules or you can't follow them), you should stop trading right now. I didn't say give up; simply stop trading. You may have already stopped, and I tip my cap to you if you already took this step. It is a sign of integrity. Instead, create some rules to follow in your personal life. Most people cannot follow rules in their own life; how can they expect to follow rules when trading? It's unrealistic. Once you make progress there, you can start to create a realistic plan to follow for trading.
I think your right on! Unrealistic thoughts. I may have explained it poorly but I believe that stems from being overly positive. And then I am breaking my rules. I create rules and magically forget my rules. I write down my rules and never look back. My friend said to wear a plastic band and snap myself each time I break my rule.
My first step is I'm not going to trade. I'm going to just watch and document the market. I will try that first.
I would love professional coaching but I feel they wouldn't take me on until I make better progress.
A plastic band isn't a serious enough response to breaking rules; you'll likely condition yourself to accept the snap. You need a response so abhorrent you wouldn't dare break a rule such as taking a sledgehammer to your vehicle 50x or donating $1000 to a vile (legal) organization.
Remember, do not be hard on yourself. Mistakes are OK - as Mark Douglas says - they are experiences which point the way. You are endeavoring to master one of the most difficult professions of them all. There are many people who can't even dream to be a trader. You are ahead in the game of life in this respect.
From the first 'Equalizer' movie: - "Progress; not perfection."
@Trading in Canada First of all I would like to commend you on both the openness to share your story, and the self-awareness that allowed you to notice this problem.
I agree with much of what @ThemBones wrote to you.
I would like to add a few more points:
1. What do YOU want instead of the current pattern? This is indeed the key question, but it is one FOR YOU to answer.
When working with traders on changing subconscious thought patterns (and from your description - this issue runs deep in your subconscious patterns), this step - the creation of an alternative thought pattern - is a key step. However, it is done through a process in which the trader himself takes the lead in coming up with the solution (yes, with guidance on how to approach it, but ultimately it's got to be his call and his wording). Any "external inspiration" can often do more damage than good. Why? because the "best" trading mindset is VERY unique to each person, not a "one-size-fits-all" phrase from a trading psychology book. If the solution isn't built in synch with the rest of the trader's mindset - it'll just end up creating a new internal conflict and new self sabotaging patterns.
After all, you don't want to replace one thought pattern that was good for someone else in your childhood, you've adapted it, didn't fit your mindset and your now need to unlearn - with a new thought pattern that's good for someone on the forum, sounds good to you - but might causes new issues and you'll need to unlearn it too....
Take the time and self-work to really figure out what it is you would like to be thinking at these situations - either alone or with proper external guidance. It's well worth it.
2. @ThemBones made a very important remark about the link between how you act in trading and in other areas in life. This is true and crucial to identify for any fix to work. We do not have two minds or two personalities - one for trading and one for everyday use. We are the same person. Any issue we have in trading is often present in other areas as well. This, by the way, is one of the reasons that improving trading psychology is so difficult: in order to "fix" something in your trading personality (in your case, sticking to rules or being less "positive-oriented") - you need to "change your regular personality". And that is something most people want to avoid... which is why so few people actually set out to do it - and so few actually succeed in trading.
3. While the decision to pause trading is valid, "watching and documenting the market" is not likely the key step right now for your progress. The key is to do actual work (alone or guided) on your mindset, not on the market! The tricky part in trading psychology is that Unless you take ACTION to actually change your mindset, it will not change - and once you resume trading you'll likely go back to your old deep-rooted habits.
I also agree that this issue of positive thinking - while definitely important - is not the only thing that's blocking your success. Rule-following also came up during the conversation as a major issue, and a few more are showing signs (although I wouldn't presume to guess specifics off a forum post).
The good news: you're already one step ahead of the crowd by actually acknowledging such issues and making an effort to work on them. And once you do, the ripple effects to everyday life will be not only an "added bonus" to your trading progress, but a blessing on their own merit.
I think positive thinking should not be as straightforward as believing I am going to make money today. You answered this yourself in the last couple of paragraphs of your post, and so believing that I am capable of following my trading rules and being able to treat each trade out of context of a previous one would be more constructive. A friend of mine, who makes a living by trading the market for himself for the last thirty years, once shocked me. I asked him how his day was, he replied that he was trading very well. I asked him how much money he made - he said: "Oh, no, I lost money today. But I was trading well". Something like this is hard to understand for someone not from trading circles.
There is a book that changed my thinking about many things, "Reality Transurfing" by Vadim Zeland (it is a silly title, but in Russian it sounds somewhat newagey). One of the points was about removing importance from a goal and treating it in a similar way to getting a post from your post box. It wouldn't be a big deal if something stops you, you just do it later. A single trade should be, ideally, treated the same way, and I think directing positive thinking towards this effect would make more sense.
In regards to rules, it is not easy to come up with some way that guarantees you follow them. The friend of mine I mentioned still, after over thirty years in the market, makes the same mistakes from time to time and breaks his rules. This is a big problem with retail traders: we have no risk managers who can make our life hell for doing stupid shit.
I've helped a fair number of developing traders. A common pattern I see is if they have a losing streak (or even a losing day or in some cases a single losing trade), they often jump to conclusions and attribute it to something that is unrelated and not the core issue.
For example, rather than considering their edge isn't strong enough, or it was just one of those times the edge didn't work out, they will blame something like having an overly positive attitude.
It is possible that an overly positive attitude may cause overtrading, or holding winners longer than the planned target, but such actions are usually easily identifiable.
My advice would be to focus on achieving a flow state so that any positive or negative emotions simply disappear and have no impact. I don't think it matters how happy, excited, nervous, positive or bored you are before a trade. Set a rule to not place a trade until you are in a flow state, and any feelings have completely gone.
Outside of flow, I don't think it would be beneficial to replace an overly positive attitude. I think that is a good thing.
I loved how you wrote you post and respect your honesty. I want to help. It covers so much, more than just the one question you asked. Will do my best to help at each section. As MANY are experiencing this very thing (s).
Replies will be in bold.
I'm still struggling with my psychology. I'm not sure if before I was totally honest with myself when I asked this. What’s in your head is 95% of the game and we ALL deal with it, new and experienced.
I recently came across an article for a second time and for some reason it suddenly made sense to me. It was an article by Steve Ira Present MS. He said, "positive thinking will destroy your trading career". I partially agree. If you say to your garden “There are no weeds, there are no weeds”, the weeds WILL take over the garden. Positive can do just so much.
I read this again and I realized I do this. It's naturally how I approach life. I set goals for myself and I charge along focused on completing my goals. I'm stubborn so I will keep trying until I can check off my goal. Determination is a GREAT thing. There are parts of stubbornness that work for you are parts that don’t. Keep the good stuff get rid of the bad.
But something he said made me suddenly realize this is a big reason as to why I'm sabotaging my results. If I may I’d like to make a suggestion: That the “self-talk” words you are using ARE sabotaging and sapping, your strength to move through your issues. Especially when you use the words (I am, I’m) whatever follows them is attached to your identity, and instinctively you naturally defend your identity. That’s the short answer to the self-talk words.
In fact I believe it is at the epicenter and perhaps the biggest fundamental reason as to why I am unable to achieve the results I'm hoping for. It may be part of it BUT not the main reason.
After all when you start your trading day positively thinking, "I'm going to make xyz today." Or your previous day you smashed it so the next day you envision another monumentus day.. or at least one that is positive. Current markets have been up and down and the latest action uncertain and VERY unpredictable, often hard to read, with ZERO follow thru. Even the best traders I’ve talked to are having a problem, and some days they choose not to trade. “Great traders KNOW when NOT to trade.” SO it’ not just you.
For myself, how this manifests is I don't have a problem taking a loss, I have a problem having a losing day. Losing in general is something all traders have to get used to, making those days smaller and stopping at a “daily stop loss”. The discipline to stop trading is one of the greatest lessons to master. NO one likes to lose and many successful people, A-types have a hard time accepting a loss, it’s not in their DNA.
I step away when I've had a loss but when I come back I still have this "fantasy" positive image in my mind, that today will be a winning day. Stepping away is really good, and when you do that THINK, what was my error? what do I have to change? What could I have seen? how can I fix it, make it better? You have to make a CHANGE in the approach, and I’ll put money on it, if you go back and don’t make a change, you will repeated the same exact mistake, right? Here’s a suggested process after a losing trade: > Losing trade>stop> ask what can I do better to fix this error> step away> breathe> go back> go to SIM, try the NEW approach till it works> Switch back to live trading and say “NEXT” I got this now.
So really I guess I really haven't shaken off the loss. You are correct. Your mind IS STUCK in the last trade, which is why you have to have a new plan and try to SIM 1st. Don’t fall into the FOMO when you go back to trade, the market will still be there. New traders just love to BE IN the game. Be smart, to survive.
When I then have another loss, I say to myself I'm not reading this right so I give myself a moment or I will trade a different product. Switching isn’t the cure. Avoidance does nothing. If you are doing this, you are not in control and have not found the error or the new solution. AND the likelihood of repeating the error is 98%. You are correct, you are NOT reading the market, SO how CAN you read the market is the better question. What are you seeing?
Now if I have a loss with that product, that's it, gloves are off and I'm revenge trading. Part of my issue as well. I watch my results. ANY emotions while trading is dangerous. Great traders trade emotion free., not an easy thing to do. I call what you are doing here “pushing trades” Your mind takes over and you jump into the game no matter what and take one trade after another and maybe even have some winner, but overtrading now becomes the issue. You want to get back the losses.
So in conclusion, I think, if I stopped having positive thoughts, fantasies or affirmations that all is good and "I'm going to crush this today" but instead replace that attitude with something else I could handle a losing day and walk away, etc. YES YES and YES. However, make the changes, tweak your system, feel good about being in control. Don’t be sloppy, fine-tune your set-up. AND NO emotions. Maybe try setting your goal for the day, NOT a big dollar amount you can’t make but an easy dollar amount you can make.
Here is a small trading game you can try” Pick an amount you can make for a daily goal, Say 100.00, you can take another trade, but it MUST be a positive trade to continue in live mode. If negative, you have to go to SIM. In SIM you must make (3) positive trades, in a row, to EARN your way back to live trading. Any loser in live mode, back to SIM and earn your way out again.
This game works on a whole bunch of lessons and disciplines. Plus you will preserve your cash.
Now to be clear this mindset was something I think I learned as a child. It is something I've adopted to help me to cope with/survive the environment I grew up in. I've always had an uphill battle in life and this attitude is what has allowed me to overcome struggles and persevere and survive. But now I think that this "can do" attitude may be actually hindering my trading. YOU are a survivor! Those skills have brought you to where you are today, that’s ALL GOOD. We need to feel good about what helps us and remove what doesn’t. You have lots to keep and sorry for your past challenges. Don’t give up, stay positive, stay strong. Get diligent, precise, become what I call “A Digger” keep digging til you find your answers or ask for help as you did here.
So can I ask, has anyone else struggled with this and what do you replace those overly positive visions/goals with when you start your trading day? The positive is OK, and finding answers is a MUST. No emotions and take out the bad self-talk language: ( Destroy, Problem, Hindering, Struggle, Uphill battle, Unable) and the negative I’m(s) – I’m not reading, I’m stubborn, I’m sabotaging. THESE Are all holding you back from positive changes.
I hope all these suggestions will help you and others. Great Trading! RDCoach
