kingoliver 

Is anyone interested in commenting on the issues Apex is currently having? Its more widespread, hundreds if not thousands of people. They shut their server down due to an extreme overwhelm of technology issues. Apparently, rithmic was having data issues with its sim, and people are complaining about ' ghost orders' and lack of speed, sometimes taking minutes for an order to get executed. This was happening to people using ninjatrader, quantower, tradovate, r trader, sierra and probably more. Personally, I ran into some of these issues multiple times, and I think its important for them to clarify what is happening without the general responses from their mods or customer service, which were: - stop trading too large/ around events/news ( even if it wasnt true) is the sim engine itself the problem, widening out the bid/ask multiple points for a split second? - your internet is dropping out ( hundreds of people at the same time?) - is it the copy trader they created that is the issue? - is is ninjatrader and the bridge? and many more, but there is a BIG problem, and I think its important to have this conversation, as they are clearly the leader in this space currently.

You mean "shut their server down" in reference to their D-chat server? They did make an announcement about it.



I cannot attest to the Rithmic problem personally as i use Tradovate. Regardless, they do need to get these issues under control.

FXSurf 

You mean "shut their server down" in reference to their D-chat server? They did make an announcement about it. I cannot attest to the Rithmic problem personally as i use Tradovate. Regardless, they do need to get these issues under control.

Yes, the         server. And I reference that because they has almost 50,000 people in it.

kingoliver 

Is anyone interested in commenting on the issues Apex is currently having? Its more widespread, hundreds if not thousands of people. They shut their server down due to an extreme overwhelm of technology issues. Apparently, rithmic was having data issues with its sim, and people are complaining about ' ghost orders' and lack of speed, sometimes taking minutes for an order to get executed. This was happening to people using ninjatrader, quantower, tradovate, r trader, sierra and probably more. Personally, I ran into some of these issues multiple times, and I think its important for them to clarify what is happening without the general responses from their mods or customer service, which were: - stop trading too large/ around events/news ( even if it wasnt true) is the sim engine itself the problem, widening out the bid/ask multiple points for a split second? - your internet is dropping out ( hundreds of people at the same time?) - is it the copy trader they created that is the issue? - is is ninjatrader and the bridge? and many more, but there is a BIG problem, and I think its important to have this conversation, as they are clearly the leader in this space currently.

Its all quite sad in my opinion, that customers are being treated this way. It seems like they had almost too much success and couldn't handle the influx of new people (either on customer service or their servers). With how much much they are making off fees they really should not be having either of these problems.

Their disc*rd server shutdown due to constant spam it seems, and people using it like customer service chat. I think they could have paid a few moderators or organized that content a little better to prevent so many questions (better FAQ, or ask a FAQ question get timed out, etc)

An important distinction is that they are the most popular by user count but I wouldn't call them the leader (today that would go to TopStep for me)

events/news - is the sim engine itself the problem, widening out the bid/ask multiple points for a split second?
The sim engine wouldn't (or rather shouldn't) be widening the spread, but instead the sim engine could be having lag and there be disconnect between published information vs real-time market information

is it the copy trader they created that is the issue?
no on the server side, but could be introducing lag on people's individual PCs

is is ninjatrader and the bridge?
My ninjatrader and tradovate sometimes get lag during high volatility events, but nothing like apex. Also apex ninja uses rithmic for the data, so it would be a rithmic data provider issue with lag not a ninja issue on the rendering of that data

jlabtrades 

Its all quite sad in my opinion, that customers are being treated this way. It seems like they had almost too much success and couldn't handle the influx of new people (either on customer service or their servers). With how much much they are making off fees they really should not be having either of these problems. Their         server shutdown due to constant spam it seems, and people using it like customer service chat. I think they could have paid a few moderators or organized that content a little better to prevent so many questions (better FAQ, or ask a FAQ question get timed out, etc) An important distinction is that they are the most popular by user count but I wouldn't call them the leader (today that would go to TopStep for me) events/news - is the sim engine itself the problem, widening out the bid/ask multiple points for a split second? The sim engine wouldn't (or rather shouldn't) be widening the spread, but instead the sim engine could be having lag and there be disconnect between published information vs real-time market information is it the copy trader they created that is the issue? no on the server side, but could be introducing lag on people's individual PCs is is ninjatrader and the bridge? My ninjatrader and tradovate sometimes get lag during high volatility events, but nothing like apex. Also apex ninja uses rithmic for the data, so it would be a rithmic data provider issue with lag not a ninja issue on the rendering of that data

And these things make sense, but there are order popping up out of nowhere for people that never placed them, and there are orders that are taking minutes to adjust ( when it isn't the local connection/internet)

I would love to hear how this is actually happening.

There are going to be a TON a theories, especially since these prop firms are either copy trading some customers, using the total exposure to trade with/against, or even to mine and sell the data, reverse engineer the strategies. They obviously have fairly sophisticated risk management software, and this is why its so interesting to see how widespread these issues are. To me, I don't believe it is nefarious or bad actors, but a growing pain as was mentioned.

kingoliver 

And these things make sense, but there are order popping up out of nowhere for people that never placed them, and there are orders that are taking minutes to adjust ( when it isn't the local connection/internet) I would love to hear how this is actually happening. There are going to be a TON a theories, especially since these prop firms are either copy trading some customers, using the total exposure to trade with/against, or even to mine and sell the data, reverse engineer the strategies. They obviously have fairly sophisticated risk management software, and this is why its so interesting to see how widespread these issues are. To me, I don't believe it is nefarious or bad actors, but a growing pain as was mentioned.

Yeah those ghost orders suck and really shouldn't be happening. Part of the reason I stopped using Apex.

Why are they happening? I'm not 100% sure but I speculate it has to deal with server overload. I would assume something with the server rebooting and reprocessing old order requests, or something like that (again pure speculation)

I've only heard of these ghost orders happening with apex, so assume its something to do with their rithmic data servers, or maybe some of the custom modifications they have done to them

Edit: I checked google and found other rithmic users on sierra chart help forums also having the same / similar issue so I assume that its a rithmic server issue. Either the server isn't responding to messages, saying it received it and never processing, or double processing orders. Maybe its related to the influx of apex users brining down rithmic for all users? Again I'm unsure, but it could be possible if there are shared resources on their server side

jlabtrades 

Yeah those ghost orders suck and really shouldn't be happening. Part of the reason I stopped using Apex. Why are they happening? I'm not 100% sure but I speculate it has to deal with server overload. I would assume something with the server rebooting and reprocessing old order requests, or something like that (again pure speculation) I've only heard of these ghost orders happening with apex, so assume its something to do with their rithmic data servers, or maybe some of the custom modifications they have done to them Edit: I checked google and found other rithmic users on sierra chart help forums also having the same / similar issue so I assume that its a rithmic server issue. Either the server isn't responding to messages, saying it received it and never processing, or double processing orders. Maybe its related to the influx of apex users brining down rithmic for all users? Again I'm unsure, but it could be possible if there are shared resources on their server side

These are great points, from my understanding, Apex went in over the last few months and has some version of their own servers, either an upgrade or their own.

Well, we can only speculate, but I have a feeling that if they don't fix it soon, you're going to see regulatory bodies step in to the whole space. I wouldn't be surprised to see the SEC crawling around, or someone with a lawsuit as well. Lots of people are losing lots of money because of sim servers.

kingoliver 

These are great points, from my understanding, Apex went in over the last few months and has some version of their own servers, either an upgrade or their own. Well, we can only speculate, but I have a feeling that if they don't fix it soon, you're going to see regulatory bodies step in to the whole space. I wouldn't be surprised to see the SEC crawling around, or someone with a lawsuit as well. Lots of people are losing lots of money because of sim servers.

I honestly struggle to see why the SEC would be involved if there was no real trading of regulated securities. Again, feels like a bad business and poor product - but I'm not sure if it falls under the SEC umbrella for a trading platform being glitchy

jlabtrades 

I honestly struggle to see why the SEC would be involved if there was no real trading of regulated securities. Again, feels like a bad business and poor product - but I'm not sure if it falls under the SEC umbrella for a trading platform being glitchy

Well let me give you some first-hand experience why the SEC will most likely get involved here.

In the years 2009 through 2011, I was involved with a SEC lawsuit as a prop firm trader from an offshore company. They called me and were prosecuting the company, because they were claiming that myself and many others were never put into live accounts and were only trading sim. This case did go through the courts.

So, it's not unprecedented for this to happen, especially if they're claiming to push people into live accounts and they're on live sim accounts, this is where it's going to get messy.

I have no doubt in my mind that some regulatory body in the next year or two is going to step into this space because it's creating bigger and bigger waves of issues.

I would love to hear the counter argument to this, because I've been through this before.

kingoliver 

Well let me give you some first-hand experience why the SEC will most likely get involved here. In the years 2009 through 2011, I was involved with a SEC lawsuit as a prop firm trader from an offshore company. They called me and were prosecuting the company, because they were claiming that myself and many others were never put into live accounts and were only trading sim. This case did go through the courts. So, it's not unprecedented for this to happen, especially if they're claiming to push people into live accounts and they're on live sim accounts, this is where it's going to get messy. I have no doubt in my mind that some regulatory body in the next year or two is going to step into this space because it's creating bigger and bigger waves of issues. I would love to hear the counter argument to this, because I've been through this before.

I think the difference now vs then is there is no explicit assertion (or expectation) that anyone is given a live account (Apex). In most of the existing futures props people are knowingly kept in sim. If they are pushed into a live account then it is explicitly known. Meaning on live, you're only getting one account (Exchange Rules) and paying for exchange fees.

Most Futures props (including Apex) have disclaimers on their home page that state how people are paid, revenue created, etc.

If anything they (SEC) could try to go after the business model. CFTC tried (with CFD prop MFF) but even that case is falling apart.

FXSurf 

I think the difference now vs then is there is no explicit assertion (or expectation) that anyone is given a live account (Apex). In most of the existing futures props people are knowingly kept in sim. If they are pushed into a live account then it is explicitly known. Meaning on live, you're only getting one account (Exchange Rules) and paying for exchange fees. Most Futures props (including Apex) have disclaimers on their home page that state how people are paid, revenue created, etc. If anything they (SEC) could try to go after the business model. CFTC tried (with CFD prop MFF) but even that case is falling apart.

Yeah this exactly. They are very clear that you are in a simulation, and in your funding contract they explicitly say your are simulation too and its not real trades, and not real money being traded.

kingoliver 

Well let me give you some first-hand experience why the SEC will most likely get involved here. In the years 2009 through 2011, I was involved with a SEC lawsuit as a prop firm trader from an offshore company. They called me and were prosecuting the company, because they were claiming that myself and many others were never put into live accounts and were only trading sim. This case did go through the courts. So, it's not unprecedented for this to happen, especially if they're claiming to push people into live accounts and they're on live sim accounts, this is where it's going to get messy. I have no doubt in my mind that some regulatory body in the next year or two is going to step into this space because it's creating bigger and bigger waves of issues. I would love to hear the counter argument to this, because I've been through this before.

Sounds like a hassle, sorry you had to go through all that. Without getting too much into the weeds the difference seems like expectation of live and real trades / profits. If they don't say its real trades or live money then SEC cant come after them.

Now will there be some kind of regulation? Feels like it with the huge increase in popularity, but might be a different org like the CFPB or FTC