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I don't think they are a good step, and yes, they are not for me. I will not berate someone for choosing these programs, but I can and do think they are making an unforced error at worst to an unnecessary step at best on their path to becoming a successful trader. Put the $30 in the bank each month. You'll be happy that pile of money is there for you when you're ready to trade a real account. As you point out, these programs also limit the type of trader they can become. Conforming yourself to someone else's ruleset is a prescription for disaster. Some can do it though. To them I say, way to go!
For arguments sake, let's presume these programs do all of the things you suggest. If I could trade the market based on the edge of these people not following rules in their own life (and likely protesting these rules or simply ignoring them). Do you believe they can follow someone else's rules in a Funded Trader Program? The odds are stacked heavily in my favor, I believe.
As Mark Douglas says and I'm paraphrasing something along the lines of 'How you trade relates to how you live your life.'
You can teach an old dog new tricks - this old saying is dysfunctional. Case in point, there's a 6-year-old dog of my neighbors' which runs around the neighborhood during the day. My wife decided to give him a new name because we didn't know what his name was when he first stopped at our home. This dog quickly responded to the new name and still retains his old name. Plus, he knows the routine we set for getting his food and then bone, too!
As painful as this is to say, and I'm not saying it can't be done, and I DO NOT berate this life example of the single parent with a mortgage and 5 activities a week with which you have provided - my response to this person is not to trade. I don't like saying it, but this person doesn't have the time, money, and/or energy necessary to be day-trading. Even Mountain Man trading, as Adam Grimes calls it, (Weekly/Monthly Trading) is a stretch, but it's probably more realistic. Do these funding programs let you trade weekly charts? There's a laundry list of other reasons not to trade I suspect this individual might be going through, too. My advice to that person is spend more time with your kids and get debt-free. You will know and enjoy love and freedom better than any trade could provide.
All I want to emphasize is that there is pain in this path. And if you have family and kids, you are involving them in this painful path, it’s not all roses and chocolates.
In regards to Chris Gardner, it’s important to understand probabilities. Chris Gardner is a statistical anomaly, but aren’t we all :-)
If $30 a month, or $100 a month, or $500 a month, is all you can afford in the market, AND you have a wife, or a husband, and kids, please make sure that you’ve taken care of your family first AND understand that you are bringing your family along on this path. And this is a path where 90 to 95% fail. There are other paths to success where the probabilities are not 95% non-fulfillment. And it’s just a fact that the depression, distress, the pain, it’s gonna bleed over to your family. Just keep that in mind.
Imagine you’re walking down a path and on the side of the road, you see bleeding carcasses telling you to turn back. If you have the fortitude to continue then by all means move forward. But you won’t reach the end of this path unscathed.
And don’t forget the pain involved in this. We watched Chris Gardner‘s movie, the reality of his journey, is not something most of us can fathom, thats why we watched his movie so we can see such a story inspire us in our day daily meanderings.
Look, all I’m saying is, again this path is not all chocolates and roses, thorns make up most of the journey. Take care.
Chaos at one level of magnification is harmony at a higher level of magnification.
Yes, that is gambling behavior, and that's one benefit of having a rule which prevents this behavior. That's my point. If they don't have money, they of all people need a rule enforced which makes this type of behavior impossible, so, a program which has it may be just the thing they need to change behaviors.
You'd be part of the 1% or so of successful traders (pulling that number out of the air, but it's probably not far off) who have never blown an account. If you do that and can make serious money, you're an anomaly.
And yes, we're on the same page in general I think. Not that we have to be .. different opinions, it's what makes a market
I was originally responding to a post similar to yours and was trying to make the point that there are other futures prop firms that do not trail on equity (the high water mark you were talking about) but trail on balance (closed P/L). You have interesting views, if you have time I would like to know what you think about a situation where the profit target is $1500, there is no monthly fee, the drawdown is $5000 trailing on balance (closed P/L) but they take a bigger share (30%) of the profit. why would this not be beneficial to any trader (new or experienced)? Isn't this trading with free money?
Something to add is that in a PA account at APEX at least, the trailing drawdown stops trailing at the starting account size +$100. So, in the example above, once you are above $52,600 your trailing stop stay at $50,100. You can then decide yourself how much of a buffer (account size) you want to give yourself. For example, you can decide to keep your balance above $55K which effectively give you a $5K account to trade.
This also seems that the against crowd base their standpoint on the assumption and stated with certainty from some, that only new traders are using funded programs and ignore that if someone can consistently make small average daily gains, that this can turn into huge monthly payments. I've stated before, that if you can average $100 a day, you can turn this into roughly $40K withdrawal a month for a $3,500 initial investment to get 20 accounts. If you trade 1 contract per account, you basically take on the risk of 1 contract with reward calculated based on 20 contracts. You will need a substantial account size to trade 20 contracts in your own account. For me this is a huge advantage, and I cannot understand that some people are so against this, but for each their own and I am not here to convince anyone that my way is the only way if they feel they should only trade in their own accounts.
I do wish that we can move away from some of these strong statements based on personal experience and failure as if they are absolute facts and should be followed by everyone and if you don't, this is because you are basically stupid and don't know what you are doing.
This sounds amazing. I’m interested. As a newbie I’m going to have a $1500 profit target? That’s amazing!
What a thrilling experience it’ll be
I’m really interested because I’d like to know how long I have to make $1500.
Do I just hit that $1500 mark one time?
After I make that $1500 profit target, do they give me my own account with their own money so that I can blow…, I mean trade it?
Do they test my abilities in any other way?
I’m surprised someone would just give me more money once I hit $1500, I mean I don’t know how I’m going to hit $1500 but I can probably just try a couple of times and hopefully hit it and then I can take that hope onto trading their money. I always have hope with me, and I always have good luck.
What a thrill this will be, I’m genuinely interested!
Does the process in anyway develop me as a serious trader?
Anyways, I don’t think it matters and actually, I think I’m asking too many questions when an opportunity like this comes up.
I really want to try my luck at this!
I can’t wait to get those payouts!
🥳
Chaos at one level of magnification is harmony at a higher level of magnification.
I’m not being sarcastic, although it seems like it, I assure you, I am not being sarcastic. I genuinely I’m going to try Apex, I don’t know why since I’m already trading real money in the real market and I don’t have these layering of complexity. But you sold me. I’m In.
For a newbie, I’m sure these extra layering of complexity is going to make my goal easier. I can’t wait to tell mom and dad!
For the “experienced” trader who is still on funded trader programs like Apex……. i’m sure there’s a difference between an experienced trader and a profitable & consistent trader, I wonder where that demarcation line will be on the spectrum, but heck if I know. I’m just playing devils advocate here.
Trading is hard enough, trading futures is even harder, and with an additional layering of this complexity, I think it will make my goal of being a consistent profitable trader a lot easier. I can’t wait to be able to provide for my family, and get those payouts. I was making $4000 a month in my job, and now I’m going to be making $40,000 a month. Wow, I can’t believe it.
I wonder how much time focus and energy it will take to be a profitable trader, actually I’m wondering now how long it’ll take for me to be averaging $100 a day on MES. I’m thinking too much.
Wealth and prosperity, here I come.
I see the light. I was wrong, funded trader programs are the way to go. I’m sold!
Chaos at one level of magnification is harmony at a higher level of magnification.
When you trade 1 and copy to 19 other accounts, you take on the risk of 20 Surely you understand that. When you lose $100 in one, you have lost $2000 total, much like you have gained $2000 total when you gain $100 in one. Psychologically it can definitely be advantageous, but risk is perfectly symmetric here.
Don't forget that it will cost $660 per month for such an evaluation, and after that either $1700 per month or a one time $2800 for the PA fees (numbers based on using Apex 50k size, at an 80% discount which is readily available). You can definitely think about it like an investment, one that certainly most will lose but for those who are successful, it can be a very nice return.
Ah, yes of course I understand that if you lose $100, that you lose $2000. What I meant is that if you lose $100, then this is what you are down per account and you have $100 against your trailing drawdown of $2,500 and not $2000 against your $2,500 trailing drawdown, but when you are up $100, then this is $2000 that you can withdraw (after meeting the minimum threshold of course). I should have been clearer about that; thank you for pointing that out.
Yes, you are correct with the fees, which is why I mentioned for about $3,500 investment. My assumption is that you pass the evaluation in 30 days and pay the lifetime once off PA fees. Even if it takes 3 months to pass the evaluation, then you are looking at about $5000 which is still a good deal in my mind. IF you can consistently squeeze out small daily gains. If $5000 is too much, you can start with 1 - 5 accounts and add new ones when you make withdrawals. This will just take a little longer, but your investment is also much smaller and after the first withdrawal, you are playing with house money.
When I read these posts about opening 20 accounts to maximize winnings; my first thoughts are this person is a gambler. If the goal is to gamble, continue with caution. Otherwise, I suggest avoiding trading. At least master a single account before looking at multiples. Further, I suggest an approach assuming failure for 36 months and the costs associated and then work from there toward success.
Don't forget to add the professional subscription fees for data if you do succeed, running north of $450 per month if you're trading something all exchanges, but can be down to around $130 if trading one.
Do a search around here for all the people taking the combines. I spent most of Saturday checking as I wanted to find out if I'm missing something in the thoughts of the people supporting Funded Trader Platforms. As a trader we don't marry a bias and are extremely flexible. I limited my searches to just TST Combine; practically everyone fails.
Here are three successes, but only one (maybe the hollywood guy, too, but I didn't search further) of them for certain has continued to be successful from what I can determine - kevinkdog. josh has a journal, too, and displayed tremendous integrity in his updates on why he thought he didn't make it. Most everyone else disappears off of the face of the earth.
Goal: To pass the combine in which I will put on all trades solely on my own, real-time Elliott Wave analysis. I will post my live analysis on StockTwits in the $CL_F room or I can be followed under the handle HollywoodTrader.
Debated with myself a lot whether I should start a journal or not since there are quite a few combine journals here. But one of the biggest +'s is that you guys will hold me accountable and I can't hide. Frankly thats been my biggest hurdle …
A few weeks ago the folks at TopStep Trader approached me about doing a guest webinar at their weekly Friday Educational session.
Since I love talking about trading, I eagerly said yes, provided I could do a Combine as part of a 2 webinar …
You can take a look at the list of traders who passed here, also. In general, no one gets to the funded trader account. And who knows how many of them made it, blew out the account and started back at zero.
I know there are many, many members on futures.io (formerly BMT) who have passed the TST combine. I cannot keep track of them all, so I thought it would be helpful to maintain a list here in this thread.