bobwest 

Beating the market means beating a lot of highly informed people who really, really want to beat you.

and let's not forget one has to beat oneself, the most dangerous of all.

Liberty88 

The Micros are already WAY overpriced!

Agree the Micro's are expensive when compared with the full size. Probably why the exchange is rolling out so many of them! The most egregious of them all? Ether (ETH)/Ethereum (MET).

• Full size is 50 Ether and exchange fees are $4
• Micro is 0.1 Ether and exchange fees are $0.20 which equates to $100 for 500 lots/50 Ether!

So Micro is 25x more expansive!

forgiven 

the answer is simple , trade stocks ..0 commission , O data charges ...

Lots of comments on this.

• I would add inability to short, or very difficult to short.
• No spreads, or at best highly capital intensive spreads.

Tax treatment on futures trading is another huge advantage:

both the tax rate

AND

the record keeping

Big Mike 

You've been here 5 years and can't find enough value here to support the community with Elite Membership? You have received a lot for "free" these past 5 years.

You made my point - in OT way.

I'm not happy with the CME Monopoly raising fees up and up but seriously, Micros are not way overpriced. Geez.

SunTrader 

I'm not happy with the CME Monopoly raising fees up and up but seriously, Micros are not way overpriced. Geez.

They are "overpriced" in the sense that you get 10% of the leverage of the full size contract but at around 30% of the cost. For example, 10 MES is about $12 total R/T, and 1 ES is about $4. So, for the same leverage you pay ~3x as much. That comes with benefits, but you certainly pay for it.

Big Mike 

I like your answer for a lot of reasons, but we should mention PDT rules and account minimums for margin. I don't day trade but many do. It's funny (?) the higher leveraged product (futures) requires far lower minimums to open. I've used IB for 25 years and I think they require 10k to open and more to be granted margin. Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

Very true Mike , 300,000 plus in you acount is needed to get ES futures type leverage . The trader can not have short pants on . However , most members on the forum trying to day trade with real money to gain experance would save money if they had 30,000 to fund a account and just traded one share of a small cap stock . if i had the money for data , comminisions , slippage ,exchange , and routing charges just for the learning years of daytrading futures it would more than 30 ,000 . Everyone is in a hurry , know their much smarter than the average bar , 1000 a day in 90 days is a cake walk for them.

josh 

They are "overpriced" in the sense that you get 10% of the leverage of the full size contract but at around 30% of the cost. For example, 10 MES is about $12 total R/T, and 1 ES is about $4. So, for the same leverage you pay ~3x as much. That comes with benefits, but you certainly pay for it.

No different than a local convenience store charging "an arm and leg" for cereal (or whatever) vs club member stores Costco/BJ's/Sam's.

But the way to not pay "an arm and leg" is to only shop at the club member stores/trade big.

I trade the minis and micros, the latter for the flexibility planning multiple exits.

My trading would be in serious trouble if I had to worry about pennies and single dollars.

Big Mike 

You've been here 5 years and can't find enough value here to support the community with Elite Membership? You have received a lot for "free" these past 5 years.

Lol where did this come from? Pretty much guaranteed that I'll never pay for a membership here.

bobwest 

Also, nothing prevents someone from using ES, for example, for longer-term trading. And the 60/40 tax treatment will be better, if your holding period is less than the 6 months you need for long-term capital gains. The greater riskiness of futures comes from the inherent higher risk of short-term trading, which you don't have to do, and of higher leverage, which you don't have to use if you keep your margin large enough. Commissions will matter, or not, mainly depending on the frequency of your trading, so will be less a factor if you're not day trading. If you do want to introduce leverage into your stock buying, which increases your risk, it will be through a margin loan, which bears a cost. If you want to sell stocks short, you will need to use a margin loan. Should a trader be doing things that increase their risk? Maybe. It depends on the person and their reasons for being in the market. If you own stock you own an asset. If you are long a futures contract you own nothing. You will be paid, or will have to pay, based on the variations in the relative value of your contract, which will expire. If you want something to put in your safe deposit box (or of course hold in the depository), then you want to own stock. If you think of yourself as more an "investor" and less as a "speculator", you will want to own stock. And so on. Personal preference, and personal balancing of the pros and cons. Nothing wrong with either, except if it doesn't fit what you are looking for. Nothing inherently right about either as well. And let's not forget that most who enter the markets in any way do not do well. Beating the market means beating a lot of highly informed people who really, really want to beat you. The competitive aspect has to be figured in the mix too. It's why all trading, and investing too, has risk. @forgiven is right, @Big Mike is right, @josh is right, I am right, everyone who makes their own assessment based on their own priorities, and is realistic, is right (but only for themselves). And is not guaranteed anything. "You pays your money and you takes your choice." Bob.

I think the point I was trying to make is being missed . I was referencing new traders , the idea was how to keep them in the game long enough to learn befor there cut to peaces . The over head of trading is large when you have a small accout . Data , commission , software , slippage , leverage and the spy does pay a dividend where as futures do not . It has more of an upward bias with less volatility . These are just facts , if you turned 100 new traders louse with a 5000 funded accounts , half trade 1 micro ES contract and there other half trade one share of the spy for 6 months . the spy group would likely be in better shape , after all expenses were deducted .