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I would agree with you about competition argument. And I don't dislike your answer. I agree it is not that simple.
I also agree with SMCJB - "Information". For me, information is essential. So I try to get ahold of it any way I can by education or indicator. (Since in my brain an indicator "indicates.")
Funny thing this morning (if I may mention again) I was invited into a webinar for an indicator I had purchased. The Vendor says "come and see how one of his customer trades his indicator successfully". I was excited b/c I have had this indicator for almost a year and it I am having issues figuring it out. I keep getting stopped out. So there I am watching as the other trader is using the Vendor's indicator, AS WELL AS two others from a different Vendor. So in the end it wasn't one indicator, it was three. And I don't mind that. I think the other customer wise for using more than one for confluence But I was discouraged because I never learned how to use the one expensive indicator. Apparently, if I wanted to trade like the other successful customer, I would need another $150 a month to rent the indicators he includes in his trading. And sadly, the audience reminded me of me; "what are those called and how do I get those". We all want information.
Or what about when you have an ex floor trader who sells his trading ideas as a result of his floor experience? I guess I hope my wallet can help me get some sort of advantage by buying this information? The question is, do they really have ideas that work? I think they do. I don't know about you, but one other related issue from my experience is the 'closed fist' trader. For lack of a better term, it seems like nobody wants to give away their "secrets" even if you pay for them.
I guess many work so hard to move up the trading food chain they don't want to share what took years to understand. I don't agree, but I will respect that conviction. Personally, I offer any help I can give if another can succeed. But where I don't understand is if one is paying to get in on that secret(s). Why does it seem the good idea is withheld? After all, like TRO always says "....so go out there and drain the banks." It really is the little investor against the mighty banks and I always thought we should stick together.
I used an airplane, but it probably wasn't the best example. But my point was to compare the basic TA with something that requires a baseline. The "fundamentals" as SMCJB said. People still have to learn price action. And for me, I had never heard of BOS and ChofCH until I started playing with Futures. Which led me to purchase an indicator that would help with BOS and CHofCH since I dont see it so well. But I still need to understand it.
Maybe I should have stuck with the doctor and the bleeding? Stop the bleeding following the rules given in the classroom, but after you learn how to stop the bleeding according to the rules of anatomy, you can use your own skills to achieve that end? If I can say it that way. But you still have to have a baseline to step out from. You still have to know how to stop the bleeding. The classroom would be akin to hand holding. For me anyways.
As I have grown in the "trading faith", I think BOS is quite important information because it speaks of candle action. So when you mention competition, I ask myself how does/can the indicator or the trading edge reveal price action? And how can I use that to beat others? As you said "Of course, it's not exactly that simple, and I think there are many good ways to trade....," and I would agree wholeheartedly. And I am just trying to find one of them that I can do mechanically. Just one idea is all I need to become successful. Sadly, like someone famous once said, I can only tell you what doesn't work at this time.
So after thousands and thousands of dollars, I guess my question is; where is the straight shooter? Where is the Vendor who can provide the fundamentals to understand? You said "Someone may be giving good mentoring, and I think some vendors are selling good products, but either way, they can only take you so far." That is exactly what I am looking for. An indicator or a mentoring that can take me any distance. Just an arrow in the general direction and I can take it from there. "so far" is still successful in my book.
I agree with most of what you said but I wanted to highlight that this part is not correct
"I would love it if there were a standard right way to make a trading decision that always or at least usually worked. But if I knew it, so would you, and so would everyone else, and you, and they, would be in there buying along with me, not after me. Who would then be boosting the price for me to profit after I bought? Who would buy when I want to sell, if the SOP said it was time to sell?"
This is why I mentioned about the commercials and speculators. When the commercials are buying they don't really care about you or your trading strategies, etc. It's not really spec v spec all of the time although that happens.
If you remember the Turtles of Richard Dennis fame, they all had the same rules but yet did not make the same amount of money. This should tell you that even if there was a standard way the outcomes vary.
It's always great having these discussions especially it enhances your knowledge.
Thanks
I think we keep talking about different things, or at least making different points.
Or in any case, not connecting in some way. Even though I do know about commercials and specs, and about the Turtles, and that they didn't all use the rules the same way.
I was trying to say to @faithdefender that you can't expect a rule book for trading that functions like what a pilot is taught in flight school, because trading is done in a competitive market where everyone is seeking their advantage, and it is very different. That's the only thing I'm trying to say. I think that's right, at least to the extent that you can't expect the same approach to work, or to find the same things there.
He has since elaborated on what he really is after, which I think is going to be hard to find, considering the many incentives vendors have to sell traders anything, regardless of its value (or lack of it). But that's another conversation, more for the vendor review section.
Anyway, I'll bow out of this now.
Bob.
When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
FD, as a guy who has blown several grand on rental/purchase of 'magical' proprietary indicators, let me offer helpful advice:
Point 1: The day you realize that 1) their expensive indicators aren't that great (you can still lose, right?), and 2) you can do just as well with common, off-the-shelf free indicators, you will have made real progress. The power is not in the indicator, it's in the trader who understands what the indicator is telling him about the market, and knows what to do/not do with that information. The gurus who I now regret following all sold 'magical' indicators that were essential for using their trading strategy.
Point 2: The gurus I got lasting benefit from did not sell indicators; instead they sold monthly subscriptions to their trade room, with the 1st week free to check-out what they were doing, They were selling instruction in their trading methodology, and you were able to follow along in the live market and see their strategies work (or not), with commentary from them in real-time. After several months of trading with them (I saw wins and losses, so no secret trades here), once I realized that I was able to read the setups as well as they did, I knew I was ready to go solo and drop the sub (although some people stay bc they like the comraderie). THIS is the instruction and mentoring you want. FOR BONUS POINTS: take the method you just paid to learn, and tweak it to fit your own style ... maybe even improve it a little. True Mastery.
I would agree with all that you said. It is true many free indicators do work well (and bless those people for their giving hearts).
I would like to find one room that stood behind their product whether indicator or education. Early on I mentioned MitchRayTA as one who is helping his audience learn Technical Analysis. He is 'paying it forward' as they say. And he has a great deal of information in that brain of his from his trading journey. And he shares almost once a day, for free. He doesn't push products or Brokers etc. But TA isn't understood in a 1 month trade room, right? I have a "long way to go and a short time to get there" said the poetic trucker. (possibly also a trader?) I am not doing a plug for Mitch, so dont misunderstand. I am saying he is on the right track for teaching the basics to someone like me. The fundamentals. Ninety nine percent of the time he remains on a Daily chart and explains price action. Little things like that to help the new trader.
It sounds like you may have had a good experience in one of your rooms? In my experience, most of these rooms have one agenda and that is getting the customer funded. But I have never understood how one can get funded before they learn a strategy?? The proverbial cart before the horse. I have not had the success with rooms I paid for. Too many to list. A few of my experiences are already posted in this site. I dont share them to whine. I share them to let others know of a potential problem they may encounter. And for me, that is also paying it forward because many do not have to pay for the mistakes I paid for.
But like you said "once I realized that I was able to read the setups as well as they did, I knew I was ready to go solo and drop the sub..." That is my goal! One mechanical set up and I can rule the world. But for me, the key is the term you said; trading methodology." For me that is information I need to learn to be prosperous.
If the poll allowed multiple selections, I would select several options.
Postgraduate education served as a launching pad into trading/ investment management, accompanied by mentorship from professionals.
Equally important is the role of self-directed learning. This encompasses a broad spectrum of activities, from deep dives into data analysis and technical literature to the meticulous review of exchange documentation and academic research.
The blend of formal education and autonomous inquiry is crucial for innovation and maintaining a competitive edge in markets.
Very mixed bag of development. First I was chaotic sponge of learning. Thought every mentor or vendor had a method that worked. It also didn’t help that I chose Forex to start with. Man that was just an extremely hard market. From there I had to try various kinds of trading, but do them on my own. After reading about 1000 trading books, realized none of them had the answers. Honestly everything came down to what I enjoyed and my risk tolerance. I have really taken a liking to non-directional trading with options. Knowing your risk up front, idea of probability of profit. Options were the hardest thing I had to learn about trading. But I am so glad I spent the time to really get to learn them.
From what we can see from the voting is that 69% are self thought and did their you research.
I believe that these 69% have all gone through some courses or been to a trade room to learn.
What I learn from the going through courses and trading room is that you can't copy their way. Most of these people offering courses and in the trading room are either previously floor traders or market makers hence they know what they what they are talking. Hence it is difficult to copy their method cause they have experience to even eyeball the level where to take a trade and where not to.
I am still novice in trading compared to many here who are far more experienced.
From what I learned from my own research is that retail traders, like us, are always at a disadvantage cause the market makers have all leverage, finance and first hand news. So we the retail traders can only follow on the "coattails" of these market makers.
What I learned from trading part time to full time is you need
1. Discipline to follow your trade plan. Easy to say but sometimes hard to do.
2. You need patience.
3. You need to understand why some levels are important cause these are levels big financial institutions and market makers look at.
4. All indicators are lagging but they can help you when they react at those levels written in number 3.
These are all I can think of at the moment. If anything I say is wrong please correct me. I am still learning