David_R 

Interesting comment. For the longest time when having difficulty trading the advice was always use a higher timeframe to reduce the noise. I found your comment interesting because given my weaknesses, one being an inability to sit in a trade, I had wondered if small timeframes would help. If the trade only lasted seconds or a minute it may surpress or at least shorten the duration of the uncomfortableness. At this point I really don't know if that would help. I have no idea what to do.

Let go of all your expectations! Just enjoy doing it, win or lose.

Trading smaller time frames might help. There's just one way to find out. Try it in sim for a month, trading in and out. Use a time frame which feels comfortable to you and do whatever feels comfortable to you. That way you'll find your niche (and when you have found it you will be ashamed to talk about it because it defies all 'rules'). Do not be afraid to change the way you have been trading till now. Or even start all over again, with no indicators.

Do the " 2 Ticks To Paradise challenge" but don't buy the system.

You need a foundation so that you can do something simple over and over again.

For a winning trade you only need two things: 1. location and 2. direction.

Things to keep in mind are market structure and most important win-rate versus risk-to-reward. When opting for a high win-rate (quick winners) you will need to keep your losses very small and avoid overtrading (revenge trading) at all times! That's the challenge. Keep posting in your journal.

Go for it.

Trying to solve a mental problem with external actions doesn't work. It just doesn't. Mental issues are resolved from within and not from the outside. He has already tried "everything." It's not about methodologies, indicators, or making small changes. Despite years of experience, "nothing" seems to work for him. He always ends up in the same place or doing the same things. He needs to solve it from within first, not the other way around.

His way of trading is very simple. Whatever he does or uses, his mind is focused on whether he wins or loses. If he analyzes his trading pattern, he will see that his mind is always fixated on the outcome, whether it's a win or a loss. After each trade, he probably looks at the result and internally judges it. He does this automatically for a simple reason: winning or losing is what separates him from his expectation, freedom. Every method, indicator or any other action will be used for him in the same way. He doesn't trade the market. He trades money.

Kaimu 

Trying to solve a mental problem with external actions doesn't work. It just doesn't. Mental issues are resolved from within and not from the outside. He has already tried "everything." It's not about methodologies, indicators, or making small changes. Despite years of experience, "nothing" seems to work for him. He always ends up in the same place or doing the same things. He needs to solve it from within first, not the other way around. His way of trading is very simple. Whatever he does or uses, his mind is focused on whether he wins or loses. If he analyzes his trading pattern, he will see that his mind is always fixated on the outcome, whether it's a win or a loss. After each trade, he probably looks at the result and internally judges it. He does this automatically for a simple reason: winning or losing is what separates him from his expectation, freedom. Every method, indicator or any other action will be used for him in the same way. He doesn't trade the market. He trades money.

I agree, but nevertheless should his method/system match his personality.

Totally agree, but there is no method/system for expectations. He has proved to himself that is not able to follow a trading plan. He wants, but he can't. This is too hard to eat, really frustrating, and confusing for anyone. A lot of traders called "The Beast".

Quoted from him:

"Yes, it is fair to say that I didn't hold due to fear of loss. I'm not certain where it comes from exactly except that I lose a lot more trades than ones that make money, so I go in thinking the next one will lose as well."

Focused on money. There is no timeframe, method, or anything else that can provide him with what he needs, freedom. Only money, and is what his mind is focused on.

Quoted from him:

"I'm not a professional, but a hack I should probably quit, but the desire of the potential freedom is intense."

Kaimu,

Your comments do not bother me at all. I think you are 100% correct. As time has progressed, and this is over a much longer time span than 2 years, I began to realize that everything else in life affects trading. I've begun to view trading as a performance activity much like a professional athlete. Professional athletes not only need to prepare physically, but they need to be prepared mentally to perform at a top level. Well, trading may not have that much of a physical component, but there is a defernite mental component. Being positive, accepting of loss and maintaining that demeanor over time.

So my question to you is how to I remove expectations or the beliefs holding me back. Would you be suggesting therapy of some kind. Do I need to start meditating? I'm not being facetious. I've been the way I am for a long time. I've recognized these issues long ago and have made attempts to improve upon them going the self help route many years ago. It sounds like you are saying I need to change my personality. How do I do that?

Kaimu 

Hi @David_R Reading your diary from 2021, 'Chapter 2,' and the answers to my questions, it's very clear that the issue lies in your beliefs. Even after two years, you still think the same way, meaning you see Trading as a way out of your current life situation. As you've mentioned yourself, you don't 'like' your current lifestyle. I recall you even said you 'hate' your job. This makes me believe that you've held this strong belief about your life for a long time and have a deep desire for change. The problem is that you project these expectations onto your Trading. When you lose, your mind refuses to let go of that expectation. When you win, it strongly connects to the possibility of achieving your goals, and a simple loss triggers a chain of actions that leads to negative results regarding your expectation of freedom. I think you know what your mind does when it wants something; it becomes impatient and wants it right away. Furthermore, this is the reason why you still haven't given up Trading, even after telling yourself multiple times that you would. You see in others what you could achieve. Their results convince you that Trading can provide the way out you desire. The issue is not with your life itself, but with how you perceive it. The problem is not with your Trading, but with what you expect from it. It doesn't matter if two more years pass; if your belief doesn't change, neither will your Trading. Take some time to think about it. Never, ever expect anything from Trading. Learn to be content with your present. Without that, you won't achieve anything through Trading. Because from Trading, you shouldn't expect anything. If you can change your present or current life situation, do it. If you can't change it, change how you think about it. There is always a way out so that your present can be fulfilling and make you feel good. Once you reach that point, your Trading will profoundly change because it won't be tied to any expectations anymore. Stepping away from a strong expectation like the one you currently have causes pain. Your mind's reaction to pain is to get rid of it quickly. That's why you overtrade, use excessively large contract sizes, seek revenge on the market, lack of patience, and so on... There's a pain in your life, and you see Trading as an escape from that pain. I hope these comments don't bother you; they are meant with good intentions. It's like when someone realizes they are overweight and decides that the gym is the solution. But the problem is that they don't go to the gym because they believe it's the solution itself; they go because they project their expectations of change, their desire to change their situation, onto the gym. From that perspective, even though they know changes take time, they won't succeed because they don't really want to go to the gym; they only want to change their situation and their mind will try to reach that expectation in the shortest time possible, something that is not realistic. That's your problem. You want to change your situation, and you project that onto Trading.

David_R 

Kaimu, ... So my question to you is how to I remove expectations or the beliefs holding me back. Would you be suggesting therapy of some kind. Do I need to start meditating? I'm not being facetious. I've been the way I am for a long time. I've recognized these issues long ago and have made attempts to improve upon them going the self help route many years ago. It sounds like you are saying I need to change my personality. How do I do that?

David,

A trader's primary goal is often to make money. However, being free from expectations doesn't mean abandoning goals or motivations for trading. It means managing those expectations in a way that promotes disciplined and rational decision-making while minimizing emotional biases that can lead to destructive behaviors like revenge trading or over trading. Here are some strategies to help achieve this balance:

1- Focus on the Process, Not the Outcome: Instead of obsessing solely about the monetary outcome of each trade, concentrate on executing your trading plan with discipline and precision. Emphasize following your strategy's rules and maintaining consistent risk management practices.

2- Accept That Losses Are Part of Trading: Understand that losses are inevitable in trading. Embrace them as learning opportunities and as the cost of doing business in the financial markets. Avoid seeking immediate revenge on the market after a loss.

3- Stick to Your Trading Plan: Develop a well-defined trading plan with clear entry and exit criteria. Having a plan in place can help you stay objective and avoid impulsive decisions based on emotions.

4- Set Realistic Goals: Set achievable and realistic trading goals that align with your risk tolerance and overall financial objectives. Avoid setting arbitrary or overly ambitious profit targets that may lead to over trading.

5- Practice Patience and Discipline: Cultivate patience and discipline in your trading. Avoid chasing after quick profits or making hasty decisions based on fear or greed.

6- Utilize Risk Management Techniques: Implement proper risk management techniques, such as position sizing, using stop-loss orders, and not risking more than a certain percentage of your trading capital on any single trade.

7- Limit Trading Frequency: Over trading can be detrimental to your trading performance and emotional well-being. Set a maximum number of trades per day or week to avoid becoming overly involved in the market.

8- Take Breaks and Manage Stress: Trading can be stressful, and emotional decision-making often arises from excessive stress. Take regular breaks from trading, engage in stress-reducing activities, and maintain a healthy work-life balance.

9- Review and Learn from Trades: After each trade, review your performance objectively. Analyze what went well and what could be improved without letting emotions cloud your judgment.

Ultimately, being free from expectations in trading means maintaining a healthy balance between the desire to make money and the understanding that trading carries risks. By cultivating self-awareness, discipline, and a focus on the process rather than the outcome, you can trade with a clearer mind and improve your long-term trading performance.

Thanks Trend,

I appreciate the feedback.

I'm not sure how to express this because for me it's inexplicable. I have told myself to "focus on the process", "follow my plane" etc. more times than I can count. What I'm trying to convey is that when I sit down at the computer to trade it's very much like the flight or fight response. You know those feelings you get when it occurs? You get adrenaline, become tense, maybe get tunnel vision etc. But this response is automatic when the situation presents itself. When I trade it's the same thing. Its not the flight or fight response, but the thoughts, emotions and feeling are, at least to me, feel automatic. It's not as intense when just looking at the chart, but if I start to consider entering or if I enter these things do become intense and the thoughts are just out of control. These thoughts, feelings and emotions take over. This is what I don't know how to control, or more importantly change for the better.

It sounds like to me the only way to fix these things is to do these things. But at the same time I've been told willpower alone is not enough. So if willpower is not enough then what's the answer? Be born to do it?

DR

trendisyourfriend 

David, A trader's primary goal is often to make money. However, being free from expectations doesn't mean abandoning goals or motivations for trading. It means managing those expectations in a way that promotes disciplined and rational decision-making while minimizing emotional biases that can lead to destructive behaviors like revenge trading or over trading. Here are some strategies to help achieve this balance: 1- Focus on the Process, Not the Outcome: Instead of obsessing solely about the monetary outcome of each trade, concentrate on executing your trading plan with discipline and precision. Emphasize following your strategy's rules and maintaining consistent risk management practices. 2- Accept That Losses Are Part of Trading: Understand that losses are inevitable in trading. Embrace them as learning opportunities and as the cost of doing business in the financial markets. Avoid seeking immediate revenge on the market after a loss. 3- Stick to Your Trading Plan: Develop a well-defined trading plan with clear entry and exit criteria. Having a plan in place can help you stay objective and avoid impulsive decisions based on emotions. 4- Set Realistic Goals: Set achievable and realistic trading goals that align with your risk tolerance and overall financial objectives. Avoid setting arbitrary or overly ambitious profit targets that may lead to over trading. 5- Practice Patience and Discipline: Cultivate patience and discipline in your trading. Avoid chasing after quick profits or making hasty decisions based on fear or greed. 6- Utilize Risk Management Techniques: Implement proper risk management techniques, such as position sizing, using stop-loss orders, and not risking more than a certain percentage of your trading capital on any single trade. 7- Limit Trading Frequency: Over trading can be detrimental to your trading performance and emotional well-being. Set a maximum number of trades per day or week to avoid becoming overly involved in the market. 8- Take Breaks and Manage Stress: Trading can be stressful, and emotional decision-making often arises from excessive stress. Take regular breaks from trading, engage in stress-reducing activities, and maintain a healthy work-life balance. 9- Review and Learn from Trades: After each trade, review your performance objectively. Analyze what went well and what could be improved without letting emotions cloud your judgment. Ultimately, being free from expectations in trading means maintaining a healthy balance between the desire to make money and the understanding that trading carries risks. By cultivating self-awareness, discipline, and a focus on the process rather than the outcome, you can trade with a clearer mind and improve your long-term trading performance.

David_R 

What I'm trying to convey is that when I sit down at the computer to trade it's very much like the flight or fight response. ....So if willpower is not enough then what's the answer? Be born to do it? DR

If you want to 'CHANGE' habits, it's essential to understand & separate the 3 components involved.

Emotions, thoughts and behavior.

You should look into the concepts of CBT or Cognitive behaviour therapy. Though it's being used for anxiety/depression, the core principles can be very helpful for anyone wishing to 'change' things in their lives. Brett Steenbarger is a good person to follow here @ TraderFeed.

I can give you a simple solution to start with. It did wonders for me.

'Separate your charting equipment and Broker/Execution equipment'. Make sure you have to get up from your PC and move to a different room or atleast few steps EVERYTIME you have to execute or change your order. This is a powerful tool to bring the unconscious mental energy/rush to the physical realm.

When I switched from PC execution to Phone app platform IBKR for execution, I was surprised how often I wanted to reach my phone to make changes to my orders.

Greetings.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

Previous posts contain gems of advice. It's clear those posting know a thing or two about all of this "stuff" you're going through and appear to be lost in.

They've taken the time and effort to put their thoughts to help you in their posts so give yourself the same level of commitment and honour what will be your own process of evolving.

At the end of the day it will come down to your awareness of the present moment.
What's basically missing for you is the understanding and awareness to accept you can't control the future. Nobody can.


The fear and dread you seem to feel and think when sitting down about to trade and in a trade are because of your inability to be aware of the present moment.

This all sounds high and mighty but it's quite simple in its essence.

Accept that you can't know when is the right time to open or close a trade. That's about the future.

Accept that you can't know if your trade will be in profit or a loss. That's about the future. What might be.

Accept that the outcome of any trade whether profit or loss doesn't define you in any way what so ever. That's about the future and past. What you regret you did or hope to be.

Accept that money, the loss or profit, have absolutely nothing to do with what you're doing now (trading). Those are about the future and past.

Accept most importantly that you cannot know the future or have control over it other than what you decide to do in the present moment.

Most anxiety and fear comes from not knowing.

If you were to know the future outcome of your trade would you feel or think the things you described !

Acceptance only happens in the present moment. It's only ever about the present moment.

You can start with the following:-

Choose a micro contract so that it's the smallest value possible.
You need it to be as insignificant as possible.
Trade only one contract.

Decide on a set period per day to trade, ie 10 min, 1 hour or 6 hours, whatever, it doesn't matter, just decide what you want.

Decide on only one chart, one set of your trading indicators or no indicators at all. It doesn't matter, just decide to use one of your many methodologies. Don't change what you're using for the duration of this.

Point being accept it matters not one iota if you're right or wrong. That will all work itself out in due coarse and you wont really have much to do about it other than wake up one moment as you realize you're already doing it.

Then simply sit down, having accepted everything above by basically saying to yourself I can't control the future only what I do in each present moment. I'm simply going to do this for x number of days to see if I have any sense of being able to trade which you can simply determine by the outcome per day/week etc. without judgement because remember this isn't about trying to do anything.

By "outcome" we're referring to how you felt and or what you thought when trading. That will be the measure of your success in being present, not anything about money.


You need to get to a place inside you're head where the money has absolutely nothing to do with your trading.
Only then will you have any chance of trading without the fear and loathing you presently have.

The only place that happens is in the present moment.

Your fear ultimately is about not wanting to be where you are or experience what you think you're going to experience. You react the way you do because you can't control the future, nobody can, and when what's happening in that future becomes the present you react the way you do.

If you accept you cannot control the future but only your decisions in the present moment you'll be able to do what you must do now when that future becomes now.

Either way it's all about somewhere else other than here and now.

Be present by accepting that you are exactly where you need and want to be now here in each present moment and gradually you'll let go of thinking or fearing anything about anything that doesn't actually exist because it's not here now.

You're not doing this to achieve anything. Trying is for those that cannot be. "There is no try only do"
Rather you're doing this simply to see. As though you're not the one doing it.

You're present enough to be able to see the self that's trading as separate.
And you'll begin to see yourself thinking and feeling the fear and dread but not as though you are the one experiencing them. Rather as though you're seeing someone else experiencing them.

From that perspective , from that level of separation you'll begin to realize you are not the fear and dread that you fear and dread because the fear is about the future and you're in the present moment. You are separate there for it's not you and you'll be able to tell that person that's freaking out because it needs to know and control the future, in a calm and relaxed and detached voice, "hey, it's ok, what you fear doesn't actually exist" and the proof that is real and true is because you'll be the one sitting there saying it to yourself in each present moment.

As mentioned others have given excellent advice and also just now by @Mies on his thread posts 154 and 155

Diary of a simple price action trader COMMITMENT

Respect yourself enough to commit to what you know you must do. Anything else is a waste of each present moment we have. A waste of each of those gifts.

It's not about controlling your thoughts or feelings. Let them be whatever they are, you just have to become aware that they aren't you.

Any way, just my 2 pennies worth. I wish you well. The place you're in isn't pleasant at all but it's simply a matter of perspective. At some point all this "stuff" will be an irrelevance to you and all your focus will be on the skill of reading the market and contract size will simply be a matter of mature decisions relative to your account size.

Just get out of your own way. Stay present, this moment is all that actually exists, not your fears or expectations or needs or wants, only now and now and now.

kind regards

Hi @David_R

Of course, I can help you. The real question is, do you want to help yourself? The work will be yours; I'll just guide you on the steps you can take. Do you want this process to be public or private? If it's public, be aware about your personal ideas, thoughts, and feelings will be exposed to others. It can also be a mix of both. Let me know your preference.