Cutloss 

in answer to your problem with trailing stop systems not being any good when used in live trading is because the algos of the hft and real market makers can kind of guess from years of data and data today as to which trades were or were not thiers so they will keep dropping the market until they find those pesky stop losses based on volume thresholds traded at certain levels that is why you often see bars athat are large kick back into the trailing stops. A smart trader would incorporate logic into his stop based on volumes or tighten it and then re enter when you see all those trailing stop losses get hit but that is a thread for antoher time. because it would deal with entry and take profit.

Oh so any form of ATR trailing stop doesn't have any real edge? Ok...

this thread is not about edge at all. it is about cutting and taking losses so not sure what ou are trying to get at. no one said anything about what you do or an atr stop or anythign to do with the atr.

1. you never even stated what period atr you are using which i find to be suspect because that in itself is odd. there is not just oh this is the atr for the es right now you must specify the periods of look back to get a rolling moving avberage of the look back period atr but im sure you know this and as an aversight just forgot to mention what your period of the atr is and your time frame?

Cutloss 

this thread is not about edge at all. it is about cutting and taking losses so not sure what ou are trying to get at. no one said anything about what you do or an atr stop or anythign to do with the atr. 1. you never even stated what period atr you are using which i find to be suspect because that in itself is odd. there is not just oh this is the atr for the es right now you must specify the periods of look back to get a rolling moving avberage of the look back period atr but im sure you know this and as an aversight just forgot to mention what your period of the atr is and your time frame?

Nah look at the code:

 

Code

int startbar = Bars.GetBar(current + StartTime); period = CurrentBar - startbar;

The picture I showed was a 1 minute chart but it should work on any timeframe.

Hey cutlass this is actually a great thread. I'm a thousand percent of the belief entries dont matter TILL you enter but then it's ONLY about exurs then.

My one contention with your line of reasoning is it doesn't alot of the time take into account "the multiple realities" that could have happened.

Just because someone blew a stop sign and never got hit and did this 100 times and was more confident each time doesn't make it any leas dangerous on the next try.

Trailing stop and stops in general will ALWAYS hurt your profits and yet if you don't use them you might as well drive with no brakes.

To me... to answer you question I think stops should only be catastrophic. OR if your plan calls to balance a certain R/R level then sure set your profits and targets.

But I couldn't agree more with you that nothings %100 certain. And the more rigid you are the worse off you be. That's why I'm %100 discretionary and always will be now.

Again the EXIT is all there is. The entry is ONLY in relation to the exit. So NO the entry doesn't mean anything! Nothing. (Sorry bob, although who knows you could be right)

Great discussion @Cutloss!

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I hope others that look at this and want to share ideas about taking losses and cutting losses add to this.

I appreciate the thanks and i am trying to understand what you mean about blowing thru a stop sign. If you are using a smart stop or any stop how can
you get in too muc of a crash? you really cant i mean sure you might fill lower than expected or the sercers could screw up or the exchange or anything but for the most
part that stop will save you to allow you to fight another day.

I agree the exit matters more for the sake of maintaining the account but if you stop out 40 times in a row with no winners you could
lose everything slowly. entry matters but i think exit matters more from a safety standpoint (preservation) but also the exit matters for profit taking.

we never got too close to that 4200 in ES why? who knows and we ahd some crazy huge trades in the end really shuffling up the deck so again who knows and
even the russell which just kept on chugging ended up not breaking thru 2250 and holding much so now what..

just crazy SLOW DAYS lately except for those early mornng and late afternoon moves

a very tuff market to trade indeed.

I ran my algo today in the micros along with some other discretionary trades.

i said i would post the results so here they are and i gave back half of all gains at the end of the day like usual lately.

Maybe a good way to cut total account losses is to just stop trading after 245 pm!! and use that time to work on different aspecs of the markets and yourself
ScreenHunter 20424

long dow futures now with a smart stop right now at 34420!! and keep buying us the smart stop on this

biggest bar is 85 points!!

market was not even close to stopping me out in the DOW my initial stop was and is wide.. they are really hunting for stops and having trouble finding them before they mark up this market in the sp500 and the dow.

the more retail who buy the more likely they want to run it down enought to that breaking point. they really tried 2 x now to push this dow and the es lower which they did in about 20 second bursts with 1200 contracts a second at least and then when smart reetail bought that fast dip the computers and algos of the pros did the math and said holy shit. we didnt shake many of them at that time. we gotta push her lower.. and they just did that.. now if enough people retail noise have thrown in the towel and stopped buying then and only then will the market stop falling and buting stops and start moving back up again.

this is how the marker works and this is why it is VITAL to always use a stop when get into a trade and or when you are thinking about exiting a trade.

thinking about losses again which is what this thread was and is about..

what if you traded demo for every one of your intrday swing trades 1st and if it say dropped to "x" amoount of loss then you would buy the market live.

this would be adding to a loser but it would not be a real loser just a demo loser.. would most likely get you a much better entry if not scalping. if you are scalping it could change things and yes
here i am talking about an entry strategy in a loss thread!! that is how focused we all are on good entries or the entry..

I was long the es this mornng from 4205.25 and ran it up to 4209 ish and thought for sure we were gonna push thru the 4210 and run hard to 13 but nope and did I have any type of stop order to protect my gains and reduce my loss of profit!!!

Maybe we should also be incorporating how to reduce LOSS of CURRENT PROFITS instead of just reducing loss of loss because if I am up 180 on a 1 lot mini that is money i have made i just didnt print it by exiting.

I bought more of course on both dips and the dow and now i have 4x the original position at a better price but i have more risk now because i did not bank my profits even with reduce profit loss stop.

reducing loss of your profits is another VITAL AREA for study and rules. obviously i had none.

LOSS IS LOSS .. loss of profits is still loss. that is what i learned today anything can happen at any time especially when it appears that all is well and the market should push higher

i think it pushes higher now but the es sp500 has been such a pig lately the big houses are obviously makign money in some indexes and hedging in the es or distributing in the es while earning or marking up in the other indexes.

Cutloss 

LOSS IS LOSS .. loss of profits is still loss.

Indeed.

held dow all day even through those other 2 brutal sell offs! still got out way early i rarely trade teh close or want to be long on a down day

was still a great day to buy the dips.

lets talk about loss?

should i have lost on my dow trade? probbaly basiic strategy would ahve said to lose on a stop out to secure the account? ididn't do that and i did ok..

maybe if i had thought i woulod have reentered and rode it from a better price higher?

i dont think you take a loss and then be doen for the day you must get back in after re assessing and looking at the market again. what kind of a trade is it or was it?
scalp day swing? longer term swing that is important.
ScreenHunter 20463


ScreenHunter 20464

I want to post up my trades today a couple of them on a chart and have people tell me or show me where i should be putting on a stop for protection against loss or erosion of my profits which happened 3 or 4 times today.


what time frame should i use and is there a website where i can post my trades on a chart and let others manipulate the chart with indicators and lines?

what is the best way to post trades on a chart for critique?