bobwest 

I would normally want to be encouraging to someone attempting to succeed at anything, including trading, and what I am about to write here is not at all meant to discourage, just to convey the truth, or something close to it. So take it in that spirit. Trading is not, ever, a good way to get rich in a hurry. For most who try it, it is not a way to get rich, or indeed to make any money, at all. Somehow the idea seems to have gotten your attention that it is otherwise. I want to disabuse you of that notion. I like this forum a lot, obviously, but what you are looking for will not be found here, or anywhere. For the most part, people who post here do not claim that it is. So, to save you some time: - Trading, and learning it, is a grind. There are no secrets that are worth anything, and there are no special techniques that give you the Answer. Once you get past the desire to be told how to do it quickly, this unwelcome truth starts to sink in. Many initially optimistic beginning traders just fade away, at least from here, as they discover this. - It's not that "you get it or you don't." Getting it is sort of easy: buy when most others who are going to buy haven't done it yet. Sell when they have, and before the other sellers sell out first. You can learn things that matter from charts and from various tools that may help you understand about the shifting balance of buying and selling, and some of these will be useful to different people, depending on their use of them. But once you have gotten that far, you have just made it to the beginning. - Everyone else who is in the markets, and who had the minuscule patience to get that far, also knows everything you know at that point. And, they have done it longer than you. This is why it is often emphasized that the markets are "competitive." So is any other business (which trading is, by the way.) For example, how hard could it be to open a successful pizza joint, right? Nothing to it -- just put the pizza in the oven and take it out. Yet the overwhelming majority of new businesses, in any line of business, fail. This is because they have to succeed against the competition, which is not going to just lie down and let them take their profits from them. Trading is a business and a skill, and it is done in competition with other traders who don't want to give up their profits to you. It's that simple. - In addition to all this, the most important thing and the most difficult thing for a trader is to find a way to overcome his/her own natural impulses, when they have real money on the line and they are excited by the chance of profit or dismayed by the prospect of loss, and the market doesn't go their way. How to act objectively, correctly, and quickly is where the largest hurdles are encountered. This can be learned, and people do, sometimes, but it is the hardest part of it. There is no book, or course, or any other type of information that will lead you to the emotional control in the face of risk that you need in order to trade well and consistently. There are people and resources that can help, as this forum might be of help to some, but it is something that the would-be trader has to develop on their own. And it takes time and self-awareness -- and frankly, losing some money and learning from that -- before it starts to happen. All of this is why it's a grind. So I don't think that trading is good for what you want. It is not fast, it is not easy, you have to know things and you have to work at it, generally a long time. I don't know anything else that is a good way to get rich fast either, but trading really and truly is not. So why does anyone bother? After the initial wild burst of enthusiasm that people have when they first see the potential, it's simply that the potential is there, and that people who work at it do -- sometimes -- make it work for themselves. So it can be done. Not quickly, though, and not easily. We try to help people here, so both the pros and the cons need to be understood. See if it speaks to you, is the best advice I can give. Then see if the time and the work is something you are willing to put in, knowing that the odds do not favor success, but deciding to just do it anyway because you just like it and you want to, if you do. Or go on to something that suits you better, if you don't. Every successful trader I have known or interacted with on this forum took years to get there. Let this be some context for you. Good luck, whatever you find out and however you decide. Everyone should eventually do things that are right for them, and it may take time to figure out what they are. Bob.

But you have to admit. If someone can lose a $10,000 account tin a day, buying and selling Crude Oil Futures and losing hundreds of dollars a trade, he could also be making hundreds of dollars a trade and double his account in the same time period. The "unrealistic" part that most people seem to be talking about is the fact that no one is THAT GOOD, and because people are that good then it isn't possible. Well, sooner or later someone is going to come along and be that good. It is possible to run a $10,000 up to a million, if you know what you're doing. The vast majority of people don't, so they're never going to do it. That's where statistics come in about the retail trader. They haven't the slightest idea of what they're doing so they end up losing most of what they put into the market. Sooner or later someone is going to figure it out and run up the account without throwing it all away.

I can tell you this: I have learned more in the last 2 days just starting at the chart then I ever did in a financial class. I'm at the point now where I don't even consider putting on a trade unless I like the setup. Maybe this is what people are talking about when they say "you can't make money every day", because if you don't like the setup the you don't trade. Well if this is the case, then I have learned fast, but I will also look at other instruments to trade so that there will always be a day to make money.

bobwest 

- Everyone else who is in the markets, and who had the minuscule patience to get that far, also knows everything you know at that point. And, they have done it longer than you. This is why it is often emphasized that the markets are "competitive." So is any other business (which trading is, by the way.) For example, how hard could it be to open a successful pizza joint, right? Nothing to it -- just put the pizza in the oven and take it out. Yet the overwhelming majority of new businesses, in any line of business, fail. This is because they have to succeed against the competition, which is not going to just lie down and let them take their profits from them. Trading is a business and a skill, and it is done in competition with other traders who don't want to give up their profits to you. It's that simple. Bob.

That's some pretty solid advise. Not only are you competing against yourself but also the competition.

I also like you bit about natural impulses. I began trading a micro-lot to see how it felt. Heart started racing, and I realized how useless it was to be in an emotional state, and tried hard to suppress it. It's now day 2 and I don't feel anything anymore. There is no fear, greed, or stress. It's just numbers.

I began looking at risk/reward and money in terms of "units". Now I'm not risking $40 per trade on NQ, but one "unit". I was trading a full sized contract yesterday (but the size was too big and I scaled down in order to learn this properly and not blow my account). Thinking in terms of units has separated my mind from my money, and now it's become a game of sorts, where I'm trying to increase my "score" (current capital in my brokerage account) and have to do it in multiples of units that I'm risking. Am I willing to risk 1 unit to make 3, 4, or 5? This seems to work better than thinking in terms of dollars. Now I can scale my size and not have to worry about the size I'm trading, since the risk parameters are checking out.

I'm learning a lot and fast. Sooner or later I'm going to get it. I've already gotten over the psychology, now I'm just looking for a profitable strategy that can be used on a daily basis to treat that bjtch of a market like an ATM.

Hulk 

Well put @bobwest. I am going to support this with my own experience. I started out in 2009 and took 2 years to get a decent understanding of what I am most comfortable trading - which markets, what kind of analysis, timeframe, position size etc. I was well funded and I knew that was required. Spent most of my savings over the next 3 years trying to make money but I could not because of one and only one reason - I could not follow my own plan. Almost ready to quit, I got lucky. I got hired at a trading firm because they liked what I had done and understood why I was failing. Struggled again for 2-3 years, again because of my inability to follow a plan. Luckily, I didnt lose any money for the firm and kept my job. In 2017, I finally made enough to prove that the system works and I can trade it. But the struggle did not end there. I was trading small compared to my peers and I had to step up and trade bigger. This is my 13th year after I first started out and I am still struggling. Covid, the war... these events have never occurred before and my backtests never saw this kind of data. By the time you realize its time to get on the sidelines, you have taken a serious hit. While my risk appetite has increased significantly over the years, I still struggle with the amount of risk I carry. Cant sleep some nights. I still deviate from my trading systems, sometimes trade against and its always a bad decision. I have struggled with timely availability and accuracy of my data, switched vendors 3 times and every time I had to do that, its a massive effort re-writing all the code to the new API. IT issues, navigating corporate policies to get what I need to be able to do my job - yeah, that happened, many times. There's always something or the other. This is not an easy job, let me confirm that. It is one of the most difficult jobs in the world but it does get easier with time. Time is the biggest investment you need to have a chance at succeeding.

CONGRATS! You made it. You fking boss!

Now let me ask you, was it worth it? Are you now making enough money to justify the years spent? Is this something that you can see yourself doing for years and scaling upwards to make potentially millions of dollars? Is this in the realm of possibility?

I'm glad you're there man. Keep at it and don't quit.

xsamanthax 

Let's be honest, what do they have that you, I, and others don't have? TEACHERS. But what do teachers do? They give you the information YOU NEED TO BE SUCCESSFUL. It's all about the proper information. I think it pays to be around other successful people because they're a source of actual knowledge. Most people on forums are completely full of crap (I promised the mod I won't swear anymore), and let's not get started on the nonsense the brokers and "educators" are spitting out. We are literally a few pages of solid, useful material away from being insanely profitable. If you're determined you can figure it out yourself. If you're intelligent you can figure it out faster. If you're lucky enough to have the information dumped in your lap because you work with other successful people... well then intelligence has little to do with it. You're going to be taught how to succeed.

Since you are a computer engineer and have been programming for a while, you have an edge over others. My philosophy has always been that I need to be able to articulate in plain language my reasons for entering and exiting a trade. if I can articulate my reasons, then I can program it and test it on historical data. If I cannot prove my reasons to trade are consistently profitable historically, I wont trade it. I will not trade anything that does not have a documented edge. Even then, not all of the systems that are profitable historically, will make money when trading live.

Point is, for programmers, it is easier to enter this field IMO. Trading requires homework and planning. Programming, automates that. All of the homework and planning is taken care of when you spend days/weeks looking at the data and charts for repeating patterns, then programming those patterns and evaluating results. When you find something that has historically proven to be profitable, homework is done. Its all about execution then.

Also, something else that gives you and edge over others is that you were in the Army so you must be able to discipline your mind easier than others. This is what can help you execute flawlessly. This is an extremely important attribute of a successful trader. Almost 30% of the most successful traders I know are ex-Armed forces.

xsamanthax 

Let's be honest. Most people fail because they aren't thinkers. They are hopers, dreamers, and feelers. Most people aren't that bright.

Trust me kid, I've watched the brightest among us try for years and still fail.

xsamanthax 

There is a different breed of animal. Someone who WANTS it and will stop at nothing to get it. That person is me. If I means that I have to stop doing research, stop looking at charts, and go work at an investment bank, then that's what it'll have to be, but I won't stop until I'm in a position where I succeed.

If you are still relatively young and going to school for finance is a viable opportunity then it would absolutely be more profitable to get a degree in finance or quant finance and work in investment banking. If you love doing work you hate for the money then investment banking is definitely the place for you lol.

xsamanthax 

Look at COVID. People can't even wear a mask, and when they do wear a mask they can't even wear it properly. Like, seriously, wtf?

Zoom out a bit, and you'll find far more egregious examples of a lack of intelligence than this. If only "how to wear a mask properly" was the biggest lesson learned, it would be incredible.

However, your assertion that "people aren't smart," while absolutely true, doesn't translate well to success in stocks. You'd probably consider Isaac Newton to be a pretty smart guy. Yet look at his own foray into the stock market to see that a once-in-a-century kind of intelligence can't guarantee success. Markets are sometimes full of herds of absolute morons (see apes and WSB). But, you can't stand in their way. You actually have to follow the herd in order to profit. You need these people to help your position, in order to be successful. That's true on a short term time frame and longer term.

It's one reason why engineers and scientists often make terrible traders (I'm an engineer, and it works against me when trading). There is no repeatable pattern which always works. It always changes.

I've taken some liberties and lied just a bit: actually, the big money which moves markets often have very good logic and reason behind it. Often, if you do some second order thinking, you'll see that what they're doing makes sense. Lows of the year made the morning of the Russia invasion of Ukraine. 10% rally in a week starting before the first (albeit minor 25bps) rate hike in years. On the surface, none of it makes sense. But of course, you can't expect it to. Easy money is only easy to the very fast and very early, neither of which a retail trader can be (speed of light issues at play here). Stocks dropping on war is so obvious, that it almost can't happen that way. Understanding it that way, it's more clear why the 2022 low has been on Feb 24. Find the driver, apply some second/third order logic to things, and only then does anything make sense. And even then, it's still just annoying, but it is how it is.

So, you kind of have to take traditional logic and throw it out the window. If you can think this way, you stand a chance. Markets are so fascinating. You have to be strategic enough to think about things from the perspective of a gambler/strategist, but then truly dumb enough to follow the rest of the herd with what's working. You can't really be in the middle--common sense logic. Fascinating stuff, to be sure.

I respect your go-getter attitude, and I certainly won't be the one to tell you that you can't do something. Give it a try with money you don't mind losing, get ready to put your "humble" hat on, and see how it works. Have fun in the process, and don't tie your success or failure to anything else in life. Best of luck!

xsamanthax 

I've been told countless times over the course of my life how I would fail, or how things can't be done that way, only to prove the accuser wrong. Usually it's by people who have failed and are trying to drag down people into their failure pit of "reality". Something is always "impossible" until someone else is able to do it, and then everyone suddenly knew it was true all along. The Earth was once flat. ... But whatever, haters are gonna hate. ... I'll post back here when I'm able to trade effectively and I'll let you all now how big my back account is, and only share my strategy with the TWO PEOPLE who have send me PMs, which are my only 2 friends here. Best of luck to the rest of you. You seem to need it.

There's a lot you put into this post, mostly anger and venting about yourself, but also your confidence, which is good and which you'll need.

But two things:

1. You've been cautioned once about language. The is the last time you will get one. I've been in the Army too, a long time ago. I know how they talk there. This is not there. Get over it.

2. You've got this aggressive, aggrieved attitude and are venting at people who want to help you and are trying to, not trying to tell you that you will fail. You are telling people, some of whom have been successful at this for a very long time, that they don't understand what you know, and that they need help. These are professionals in the business that you say you want to get into. They have done nothing to you, and you have no beef with them. Get over this too.

I've deleted your post for the language. As for the attitude, we expect civility and professionalism here, and have no tolerance for repeated rudeness. If you aren't willing to conduct yourself that way, then you will be banned. It's a simple standard.

Calm down, get over whatever is making you angry, learn the craft. But no more insulting the people who try to help you, even if you think they are not helping and even if you think they are wrong. Get over yourself and just learn what you need to and do the job.

Bob.

bobwest 

There's a lot you put into this post, mostly anger and venting about yourself, but also your confidence, which is good and which you'll need. But two things: 1. You've been cautioned once about language. The is the last time you will get one. I've been in the Army too, a long time ago. I know how they talk there. This is not there. Get over it. 2. You've got this aggressive, aggrieved attitude and are venting at people who want to help you and are trying to, not trying to tell you that you will fail. You are telling people, some of whom have been successful at this for a very long time, that they don't understand what you know, and that they need help. These are professionals in the business that you say you want to get into. They have done nothing to you, and you have no beef with them. Get over this too. I've deleted your post for the language. As for the attitude, we expect civility and professionalism here, and have no tolerance for repeated rudeness. If you aren't willing to conduct yourself that way, then you will be banned. It's a simple standard. Calm down, get over whatever is making you angry, learn the craft. But no more insulting the people who try to help you, even if you think they are not helping and even if you think they are wrong. Get over yourself and just learn what you need to and do the job. Bob.

Roger that.

xsamanthax 

Roger that.

Hello xsamanthax,

I am on my about my 5th year and still not profitable either.

My recommendation : I have no recommendation, because I am not consistent profitable yet. And it should be a sin to give advice to people how to make money trading if I make no money trading. I will not even offer you good luck, because that is giving advice.

I just wanted to share my length of time so far.

Now if you want my recommendation and why I am still not profitable, I will tell you my opinions and hope it helps you.

bobwest 

There's a lot you put into this post, mostly anger and venting about yourself, but also your confidence, which is good and which you'll need. But two things: 1. You've been cautioned once about language. The is the last time you will get one. I've been in the Army too, a long time ago. I know how they talk there. This is not there. Get over it. 2. You've got this aggressive, aggrieved attitude and are venting at people who want to help you and are trying to, not trying to tell you that you will fail. You are telling people, some of whom have been successful at this for a very long time, that they don't understand what you know, and that they need help. These are professionals in the business that you say you want to get into. They have done nothing to you, and you have no beef with them. Get over this too. I've deleted your post for the language. As for the attitude, we expect civility and professionalism here, and have no tolerance for repeated rudeness. If you aren't willing to conduct yourself that way, then you will be banned. It's a simple standard. Calm down, get over whatever is making you angry, learn the craft. But no more insulting the people who try to help you, even if you think they are not helping and even if you think they are wrong. Get over yourself and just learn what you need to and do the job. Bob.

Hello Bob,

I wanted to say I appreciate you and thank you.

I am not sure what thread I read from you where you stated that newbies should stop changing and stick to one thing. You was right.