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Retail Trading As An Industry

  #31 (permalink)
brmicha2000
Denver, CO
 
Posts: 37 since Aug 2021
Thanks Given: 0
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processing View Post
Hey everyone,

So I was doing some thinking about trading as a retail trader, and what many books and almost all of trading courses teach.

It seems there is a highly emphasised mantra that is constantly spoken: “Trading is 90% mindset."

It really got me thinking. And even feeling a little resentful, if I'm to be completely honest.

It feels like it is implying "the course strategies all work" and "if you don't profit consistently" and "if you don't make money" or "[insert another phrase here]" it is always due to the trader's mindset. "It is the trader's fault." Meaning it is never the broker's fault. Or the fact that some strategies aren't meant to work in all markets.

It almost feels as though there is a disclaimer that trading teachers say: "If you take my course and you don't succeed, it's not my fault, just try harder, because it's your mindset that is the issue."

It's like an endless rabbit role that one can go down and never really return from. Thus it creates this endless purchasing of courses and books to "fix" the mindset.

It can lead to someone thinking “I just need to buy the next book, and hope it solves my mindset issue.” Or “this course will solve all my mindset problems.”

I just wanted to share my thoughts on this.

From my perspective, most courses are scams. If someone could really successful in short term trading, like me for instance, I would not give away my secrets. If I can't really make a living at trading or investing, I then need to supplement my income through selling programs. There are even some failed professional traders out there, who used to be professional before the algorithmic age that now sell strategies. There are even 80s professional traders writing books now that they have retired. See if their strategies work. One thing that I've come to believe is, that trading strategies should be simple, however, when you really find a simple, high probability strategy, you don't always get trades. You have to have patience and wait, sometimes, with no trades in a given day. That is just not something that most smaller traders want to do. So, they take some kind of trade that looks ok. They don't follow a strict plan, and they settle for the best they think they are going to get. Some environments are just more sideways, like the environments we've been seeing lately in the indexes. They sit around in their initial range, (the range created from the start of the day's session for the first 30 minutes), all day. Those market environments are very high risk, since sooner or later, that market will break out on the longer term chart, and drive into a multi day trend. Traders would be better off avoiding those environments. But, that requires putting aside their desire to make so much money so fast, and waiting for better environments to trade in, where trading is lower risk, and they are more likely to make money. Also, because markets move so fast with the intraday trends, traders end up missing them most of the time. So, they resort to trading against the trends, rather than trying to learn how to trade with the high speed trend movements. I believe they need to never give up on following the trends, and learn how to do it correctly, with a simple method that they devise. Unless the are long term investors, and want to buy low on value, based on research they have done, (not research done by some service).

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  #32 (permalink)
brmicha2000
Denver, CO
 
Posts: 37 since Aug 2021
Thanks Given: 0
Thanks Received: 67

I think that most people who sell trading programs, are trading program salesman. They use various kinds of sales techniques trying to get people to buy their product. If I have the capability to be successful in short term trading, I absolutely will not sell my secrets. However, if I am a losing trader, or simply can't make a living, becoming a trading program salesman would be a great gig. I think that people who think their broker somehow caused their problems are just making excuses. I think that people need to keep in mind that trading should be simple. For instance, the market made a higher high, and corrected. I want to look for a place to get long. Everyone knows that strategy. But, they think, it is too simple to win. Absolutely not. I know that a strategy that simple makes consistent money. However, they tend to think they can perfectly time the correction, have a tight stop loss, and then, think their broker must have hit their stop loss. Short term trends also tend to move very fast, such that most traders miss them. Because they consistently miss them, they resort to trading counter the trend. Also, it is common for someone to say, this trade is ok, and they take a trade, even though, it is not within their strict plan. This is a common psychological bias, where they settle for the best they think they are going to get. Traders simply have too high of aspirations, taking too many trades. It is ok not to find a trade every day. Let's say that you start out trading micro contracts, 1 micro. Let's say that you go through this year, and you make 2 percent. I say, great job. You tell your friends, they laugh, saying you are wasting your time. I say, let's try to increase your size some. The next year, you make 10 percent. You are now starting to gain confidence in your capabilities. I say, don't change anything. Don't look for the holy grail. You have proven you can make money. Let's try to increase size a little more. The next year you make 50 percent. You are as good as any professional trader now. You can now go work on Wall Street, if you want to. You proved to yourself that you will make money. You can't make money in trading unless you already truly believe that you will make money, and you have developed enough confidence through experience to know for certain that you will make money.

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  #33 (permalink)
 Diamondsway 
Arlington TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja Trade Station
Trading: ES
Posts: 5 since Sep 2012
Thanks Given: 1
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brmicha2000 View Post
From my perspective, most courses are scams. If someone could really successful in short term trading, like me for instance, I would not give away my secrets. If I can't really make a living at trading or investing, I then need to supplement my income through selling programs. There are even some failed professional traders out there, who used to be professional before the algorithmic age that now sell strategies. There are even 80s professional traders writing books now that they have retired. See if their strategies work. One thing that I've come to believe is, that trading strategies should be simple, however, when you really find a simple, high probability strategy, you don't always get trades. You have to have patience and wait, sometimes, with no trades in a given day. That is just not something that most smaller traders want to do. So, they take some kind of trade that looks ok. They don't follow a strict plan, and they settle for the best they think they are going to get. Some environments are just more sideways, like the environments we've been seeing lately in the indexes. They sit around in their initial range, (the range created from the start of the day's session for the first 30 minutes), all day. Those market environments are very high risk, since sooner or later, that market will break out on the longer term chart, and drive into a multi day trend. Traders would be better off avoiding those environments. But, that requires putting aside their desire to make so much money so fast, and waiting for better environments to trade in, where trading is lower risk, and they are more likely to make money. Also, because markets move so fast with the intraday trends, traders end up missing them most of the time. So, they resort to trading against the trends, rather than trying to learn how to trade with the high speed trend movements. I believe they need to never give up on following the trends, and learn how to do it correctly, with a simple method that they devise. Unless the are long term investors, and want to buy low on value, based on research they have done, (not research done by some service).

WELL SAID!

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  #34 (permalink)
 
xplorer's Avatar
 xplorer 
London UK
Site Moderator
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
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brmicha2000 View Post
I think that most people who sell trading programs, are trading program salesman. They use various kinds of sales techniques trying to get people to buy their product. If I have the capability to be successful in short term trading, I absolutely will not sell my secrets. However, if I am a losing trader, or simply can't make a living, becoming a trading program salesman would be a great gig. I think that people who think their broker somehow caused their problems are just making excuses. I think that people need to keep in mind that trading should be simple. For instance, the market made a higher high, and corrected. I want to look for a place to get long. Everyone knows that strategy. But, they think, it is too simple to win. Absolutely not. I know that a strategy that simple makes consistent money. However, they tend to think they can perfectly time the correction, have a tight stop loss, and then, think their broker must have hit their stop loss. Short term trends also tend to move very fast, such that most traders miss them. Because they consistently miss them, they resort to trading counter the trend. Also, it is common for someone to say, this trade is ok, and they take a trade, even though, it is not within their strict plan. This is a common psychological bias, where they settle for the best they think they are going to get. Traders simply have too high of aspirations, taking too many trades. It is ok not to find a trade every day. Let's say that you start out trading micro contracts, 1 micro. Let's say that you go through this year, and you make 2 percent. I say, great job. You tell your friends, they laugh, saying you are wasting your time. I say, let's try to increase your size some. The next year, you make 10 percent. You are now starting to gain confidence in your capabilities. I say, don't change anything. Don't look for the holy grail. You have proven you can make money. Let's try to increase size a little more. The next year you make 50 percent. You are as good as any professional trader now. You can now go work on Wall Street, if you want to. You proved to yourself that you will make money. You can't make money in trading unless you already truly believe that you will make money, and you have developed enough confidence through experience to know for certain that you will make money.

Hi brmicha2000

If I may, a little advice to format your posts, especially when they are long, is to add spacing to the various paragraphs.

I for one would like to read them as they look interesting, but I do struggle with reading them as they are.

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  #35 (permalink)
brmicha2000
Denver, CO
 
Posts: 37 since Aug 2021
Thanks Given: 0
Thanks Received: 67


xplorer View Post
Hi brmicha2000

If I may, a little advice to format your posts, especially when they are long, is to add spacing to the various paragraphs.

I for one would like to read them as they look interesting, but I do struggle with reading them as they are.

I'll try to do better

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  #36 (permalink)
 
dbarno's Avatar
 dbarno 
Madison, Wi
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader, Trade Navigator
Trading: CL,GC, HG
Posts: 79 since Jul 2012
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Used to mentor traders. Agree with it being mostly mental. The first thing I would have them do is get a copy of The Sedona Method. It is a work book, not something to read for entertainment. It helps you get your head together on the big parts before going to trading psychology. It gives your head a base to work with.

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  #37 (permalink)
 sienna 
Melbourne, Australia
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninja Trader
Broker: Ninjatrader Brokerage
Trading: Many
Frequency: Several times daily
Duration: Minutes
Posts: 162 since May 2012
Thanks Given: 283
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A highly successful head trader and trainer at a UK based propfirm once told me, that in his opinion at least 80% , probably 90% of trading is mental. And he has a few manual systems that are backtested for decades and which he trades precisely, without deviation.

Following that and a seeing quite few of my bad habits that keep crushing my profit margins again and again, I have started work with a hypnotist who specializes in work with traders and who is herself a trader and holds current certificates.

This is turning my trading around. Speaking experientially, (not from theory), I am modifying my strategy to suit my personality and getting greater clarity and discipline in regards to my strategy.

The reason I went with a hypnotist (with a good reputation amongst traders), is that I wanted to get to my subconscious, because following the rational “ I must do this or that” or “I need to implement this or that genuinely wise advice” has not worked that well (for me).

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  #38 (permalink)
 
processing's Avatar
 processing 
Sydney, NSW
 
Experience: Beginner
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Frequency: Other
Duration: Other
Posts: 102 since Feb 2011
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dbarno View Post
Used to mentor traders. Agree with it being mostly mental. The first thing I would have them do is get a copy of The Sedona Method. It is a work book, not something to read for entertainment. It helps you get your head together on the big parts before going to trading psychology. It gives your head a base to work with.

The Sedona Method!!
That book was recommended to me by Chip Evans, more than a decade ago.
I found it so helpful with my anxiety.
It's time to revisit that book.

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  #39 (permalink)
 
processing's Avatar
 processing 
Sydney, NSW
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Quantower
Frequency: Other
Duration: Other
Posts: 102 since Feb 2011
Thanks Given: 285
Thanks Received: 140


sienna View Post
A highly successful head trader and trainer at a UK based propfirm once told me, that in his opinion at least 80% , probably 90% of trading is mental. And he has a few manual systems that are backtested for decades and which he trades precisely, without deviation.

Following that and a seeing quite few of my bad habits that keep crushing my profit margins again and again, I have started work with a hypnotist who specializes in work with traders and who is herself a trader and holds current certificates.

This is turning my trading around. Speaking experientially, (not from theory), I am modifying my strategy to suit my personality and getting greater clarity and discipline in regards to my strategy.

The reason I went with a hypnotist (with a good reputation amongst traders), is that I wanted to get to my subconscious, because following the rational “ I must do this or that” or “I need to implement this or that genuinely wise advice” has not worked that well (for me).

That reminds me, I need to start doing EFT tapping again.

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  #40 (permalink)
 
JMAL's Avatar
 JMAL 
Houston Texas
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader 7
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage
Trading: ES, MES
Posts: 98 since Jul 2014
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wldman View Post
As a former pro in multiple venues I could do a daily post on just this. If there is interest or if a Q&A on this would be beneficial, let me know. I have many things that I am certain about and quite a few well supported theories on the industry, regulation, and retail.

-Dan

Question, Do you think a successful professional trader finds his/her job stressful, does he/she feel his blood pressure raise when entering a trade, does he/she heart race during a trade?

As a retail trader, small time I might add, I feel these things but only while trading with real money or Prop trading. If on the other hand it's only SIM trading then there are no emotions.

Does a Pro get to the point where trading the institutions money seem to them it's SIM trading?

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