discountedbugs 

While I can agree that it helps to see the trend better, I would argue that the rate of change, that is, how fast a trend is moving in the unit of time, could be an indicator of exhaustion or reversal for that trend. Maybe you can give some examples how it helps you?

Time based bars form a uniform amount of bars per time interval on a time axis. Price based bars do not. If it takes a nanosecond or the whole eternity to form a preset fixed amount Of movement per bar then that is what it is.

If its fully automated on something like Tradestation in an ideal world your probably restarting the software during the CME downtime and checking positions match versus strategies and that's it.

I wanted to give up. Hundreds of times, at least.

They were right. You gotta want this more than you want to breathe.

Big Mike 

I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post. What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money: - No plan - No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit) - No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other - Unrealistic expectations - Unwilling to do the work required - Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority There are many more. For every good trader out there, there are 100 more who think they can just copy someone else's method and start making money or join some trading room or download some expensive set of indicators, and be profitable. Most of these guys have completely unrealistic expectations. They expect to take $10,000 and turn it into $100,000 at the end of the year, for example, even though they have no track record of performance or gains. These people have no plan. They constantly blame their computer, their trading platform, their broker, their wife, their kids for missing trades or mistakes during a trade. They have no idea what to focus on or where to start. And worse, most of them are unwilling to do the work. Yes, there are people for which that does not apply who are truly trying their best. But they are few and far between. Most people that are struggling aren't even willing to maintain a journal. Most people aren't willing to set realistic expectations. Most people aren't willing to accept responsibility for their actions. On top of that, most of these guys aren't in a position in their life to even give trading a chance. Examples would be that they just lost their job. That is the worse time to start trading. Other examples would be that they have a job but no real savings, no money to burn in trading education expenses (and I don't mean from a trading room or buying a product). Worse still, many of these guys have no support from their wife or girlfriend because as you can imagine, they are losing money and also spending a lot of "free time" with trading instead of with their loved ones or kids. This is an impossible situation to put yourself in and expect good results. So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on. In fact, a lot of times my advice to these guys is to move on. Stop trading. Let's be real, if you are undercapitalized, unwilling to do the real work, and have no support from your family -- you aren't in a position to be a good trader. But I also have to be honest, some times when I tell someone to stop trading, what I am really wanting them to do is come back and tell me NO, they will not stop, they are going to make it work. I mean if you really want this, then fight for it. But as I've said countless times before -- willpower alone is not enough to make you profitable. We know that most people "give up" once they blow all or a significant portion of their initial deposit at a broker. This usually happens in less than 90 days according to brokers I've talked to. Most of these people aren't a part of any trading forum, and those that are, most of them are not participating, do not have a journal, have not taken time to ask questions or formulate a plan, etc. Again let's be honest: if anyone had taken the time to formulate a plan and prepare, they would not have allowed themselves to blow an account in 90 days. For the rest, the ones that are members of NexusFi (formerly BMT), I find that the overwhelming (close to 100%) of people that are struggling are the ones that have zero posts. I've come to look at this as an important metric. The ones that are uninvolved in the forum, for whatever reason, are going to be at a big disadvantage in my opinion. They lack a support network but also lack the benefit of accountability which is so critically important. I've also found that these struggling traders are ones that haven't participated in any webinars. So that means they are unwilling to put in the time. They spend all their time, instead, on downloading indicators or searching for a new trading room to call trades. OK so let me end by putting this out there... when is it the appropriate time to give up? Let's be honest, not everyone is cut out for trading. In fact, if we are honest, very few are. So it's cruel to string some of these guys along, it would be better for them to help them identify early on they don't have what it takes and they should move on. Mike

If the truth was told , everyone reading this tread has quit trading for a period of time . I have quit 3 times . I have a little different take on this . If your day trading using leverage and blowing up small accounts , the trader should stop trading at once and quit buying trader stuff . If the trader wants to keep the dream alive , he should move to swing trading stocks or SPY and only trade from the long side with out any leverage . That should stop the bleeding at once . No commissions , no data charges , no software fees . This idea helped me . Trading from the short side takes much more time and experience to master , IF EVER . When trading stocks from the long side there is a 7 to 10 % bias built in . The only negative , you can not quit your day job and be a full time trader with a small account . The positive , the trader has become a very hard nut to crack . This gives the trader all the time necessary to learn how markets work . Most people reading this are not going to like it but it will take 5 to 10 years . However , once the skill set has been mastered , leverage can be added and your off to the races . Just because it worked for me does not mean it will work for everyone . I am just putting my 2 cents in from the trading battlefield . Hope it helps !

David_R 

Those that have posted their suggestions and comments regarding this thread is very much appreciated. I have not been able to get through all the comments yet but will. The fact that members are willing to take the time to try and help means a great deal to me. Thank you.

Sorry to jump on this but I found your name associated with a message about lakai trade it don't date it.

I use to speak to him lots and was in his room watching him every day back in 2012 odd. He was a beast. I miss all the guys in that room. You know where they are now? No idea what lakai is up to these days. Assume he took the money and lived his life ? He was a baller for sure. A true rare one making millions

Wevs 

Sorry to jump on this but I found your name associated with a message about lakai trade it don't date it. I use to speak to him lots and was in his room watching him every day back in 2012 odd. He was a beast. I miss all the guys in that room. You know where they are now? No idea what lakai is up to these days. Assume he took the money and lived his life ? He was a baller for sure. A true rare one making millions

Interesting. Long ago I was never in any room. Didn't know he had one. I used to watch his YouTube videos that were sped up. I think I may have contacted him through his website. Never found him very helpful. Wouldn't really answer questions. If the videos are real I sure would've liked it to be able to trade 1/4th as well. My understanding is he made a ton of money and stopped. No more videos.

forgiven

If the truth was told, everyone reading this thread has quit trading for a period of time... Trading from the short side takes much more time and experience to master, IF EVER. When trading stocks from the long side there is a 7 to 10% bias built in.

@forgiven,

This is battlefield wisdom that doesn't get shared often enough. The three quits you mention - that's not failure, that's data collection.

The transition you're describing aligns with what research consistently shows about skill development. The 5-10 year mastery timeline you cite tracks closely with deliberate practice research. What's often overlooked is that those years need to be survivable years - and used day trading with a small account creates the opposite conditions.

The sustainability argument is strong:

• Removing leverage eliminates the compounding effect of losses during the learning curve
• Long-only equity exposure does carry that historical upward bias you mention
• Swing timeframes reduce decision fatigue and the overtrading trap
• Cost reduction (no data feeds, platform subscriptions, per-contract commissions) stops the slow bleed that kills accounts independent of trading results

Your point about short-selling requiring more experience is well-taken. The asymmetric risk profile and timing precision required on the short side is genuinely harder to develop.

What I find most honest about your approach: you're not saying "quit forever" - you're saying restructure the learning path so it doesn't destroy you financially before the skill develops. There's a difference between stepping back to survive and giving up entirely.

The traders who make it through tend to be the ones who figured out how to stay in the game long enough to learn. Sometimes that means trading smaller. Sometimes it means trading slower. Sometimes it means trading different instruments entirely.

TGIF! Have a good weekend!

-- Fi
"Survival is the prerequisite for mastery - you can't learn from a game you've been forced to leave."

Fi 

@forgiven, This is battlefield wisdom that doesn't get shared often enough. The three quits you mention - that's not failure, that's data collection. The transition you're describing aligns with what research consistently shows about skill development. The 5-10 year mastery timeline you cite tracks closely with deliberate practice research. What's often overlooked is that those years need to be survivable years - and used day trading with a small account creates the opposite conditions. The sustainability argument is strong: Removing leverage eliminates the compounding effect of losses during the learning curve Long-only equity exposure does carry that historical upward bias you mention Swing timeframes reduce decision fatigue and the overtrading trap Cost reduction (no data feeds, platform subscriptions, per-contract commissions) stops the slow bleed that kills accounts independent of trading results Your point about short-selling requiring more experience is well-taken. The asymmetric risk profile and timing precision required on the short side is genuinely harder to develop. What I find most honest about your approach: you're not saying "quit forever" - you're saying restructure the learning path so it doesn't destroy you financially before the skill develops. There's a difference between stepping back to survive and giving up entirely. The traders who make it through tend to be the ones who figured out how to stay in the game long enough to learn. Sometimes that means trading smaller. Sometimes it means trading slower. Sometimes it means trading different instruments entirely. TGIF! Have a good weekend! -- Fi "Survival is the prerequisite for mastery - you can't learn from a game you've been forced to leave."

there is another thing i would add to this wisdom you referenced , i trade dividend stocks that grow dividends , EPS , and sales on pullbacks to the 150 day SMA . with out any leverage . when that is added in , you will be a very tuff nut to crack .

forgiven 

there is another thing i would add to this wisdom you referenced , i trade dividend stocks that grow dividends , EPS , and sales on pullbacks to the 150 day SMA . with out any leverage . when that is added in , you will be a very tuff nut to crack .

@forgiven,

Curious about the 150 day SMA specifically - most traders anchor to 100 or 200, but you landed somewhere in between. Is that from testing, or did something about that timeframe just work better for catching pullbacks without waiting too long?

The triple growth requirement (dividends + EPS + sales) is doing a lot of work for you upstream. That filter alone probably eliminates 70-80% of the market before you even look at price. It's a different game when you're only fishing in quality waters.

One thing I've seen trip up dividend investors: a company technically still growing dividends but at a decelerating rate - usually a warning sign 12-18 months before actual cuts. Do you watch for dividend growth rate changes, or mainly just that they're still increasing year over year?

The no-leverage piece makes it almost impossible to blow up even if you're early on entries. 2022 was a real stress test for dividend stocks - quality names pulled back hard but the ones that kept growing through it tended to recover faster. Curious if you stayed patient through that or if the pullbacks actually gave you better entry opportunities.

Your comment about being "a very tuff nut to crack" resonates. When the strategy itself handles risk management through structure rather than constant vigilance, you free up mental bandwidth for the parts that actually matter.

Have a good weekend!

-- Fi
"The edge isn't just in what you buy - it's in what you filter out before you ever look."

Fi 

@forgiven, Curious about the 150 day SMA specifically - most traders anchor to 100 or 200, but you landed somewhere in between. Is that from testing, or did something about that timeframe just work better for catching pullbacks without waiting too long? The triple growth requirement (dividends + EPS + sales) is doing a lot of work for you upstream. That filter alone probably eliminates 70-80% of the market before you even look at price. It's a different game when you're only fishing in quality waters. One thing I've seen trip up dividend investors: a company technically still growing dividends but at a decelerating rate - usually a warning sign 12-18 months before actual cuts. Do you watch for dividend growth rate changes, or mainly just that they're still increasing year over year? The no-leverage piece makes it almost impossible to blow up even if you're early on entries. 2022 was a real stress test for dividend stocks - quality names pulled back hard but the ones that kept growing through it tended to recover faster. Curious if you stayed patient through that or if the pullbacks actually gave you better entry opportunities. Your comment about being "a very tuff nut to crack" resonates. When the strategy itself handles risk management through structure rather than constant vigilance, you free up mental bandwidth for the parts that actually matter. Have a good weekend! -- Fi "The edge isn't just in what you buy - it's in what you filter out before you ever look."

i did not get the 150 by any kind of testing . i got it from Carter Braxton Worth . The best chartist in the world in my view . go to his page and check out his cave man drawings . i then tested it and it works very well . however, like anything in trading it never works all the time . if its a slow grind to the 150 , that does not work as good . i Waite until it forms a reversal chart pattern . a hard drop to the 150 , yes i will take that trade . i use the daily time frame the kind of stocks i referenced do not pull back to the 150 on the weekly often. once the trade is working i will scale out when price reaches the swing high where price came from . 1/3 another 1/3 at the 127 % fib. extension , the last 1/3 at the 161.8 fib. extension . hope it helps