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Would not these concerns of yours apply to the funding phase where you're in simulator as well?
As far as I can tell - the funding company can't influence my fills or quote against me. It's subject to the simulator in Ninjatrader or whatever software is being used. If however the funding company could influence fills or even quotes I would agree it's a big problem.
I do not think this is something to be worried about, at least not with the major data feeds whose sim places you in queue, and doesn't artificially fill you at bad prices. Sure there are some BAD sims like CTS T4, but rithmic/cqg are very good and you will not have these issues.
Also, these companies do not control where you get filled, they are not market maker/brokers like in Forex.
don't mind if the trades actually are traded in the market
don't care if your profit is entirely from trading gain or not
don't mind being in another business as long as you make money
don't care about the laws (if you live in US)
I don't believe in made up concepts like LiveSim (much like alternate fact). It is either Live or Sim. I want to make money honestly, meaning, I want to make money from actual trading entirely, not by selling to CopyTrade subscribers, not from fees paid by other applicants and definitely not from proceeds of any online gambling.
As a trader, I want to be in the business of trading. Not for being part of some counter-trend survey indicator. Yes, I know I can make money online through surveys, affiliate programs etc. I would rather make money selling some systems, indicators or an ebook on how I failed in trading.
Most of these "get funded" programs operate in Forex outside US, against the US securities laws (as well as laws prohibiting Internet gambling); although I know one program operates in Chicago in Futures space.
Why don't aspiring traders join some trading education programs, such as KJ systems, rather than waste money on applying to these "get funded" programs? I am not saying these education programs make you successful, but at least they try hard to justify the outrageous fees they charge. And, if you'd rather make money some how, think carefully if you want to pursue trading in the first place, while some easier options exist.
I think it would be fun to code and share a profitable trade system just to break these so-called prop shops.
Sody
"The great Traders have always been humbled by the market early on in their careers creating a deep respect for the market. Until one has this respect indelibly engraved in their makeup, the concept of money management and discipline will never be treated seriously."
What would your reaction be if your broker told you all your profits were from a simulator? Would you feel your life was over?
These programs are (potentially) a means to an end and an opportunity for a poor, but skilled trader to extract some money out of the market (?) to fund his own account.
I've traded a lot live and some in simulator. Trading in simulator is very similar in liquid markets.
If you have some moral issues about profits being paid by other participants (really the same as traders who donate to you in the market considering the zero sum nature of the market) - then fine. I don't.
Actually, my impression is that most of these programs operate in futures only. I believe TopStep was the first and it was strictly futures. They now seem to offer FX. E2T and OneUp seems to offer futures only.
I would assume most companies put you on a live account eventually. As I understand it - those who utilize a sim account only does it initially.
But if some firm truly have you on sim indefinitely, I wonder how they'd deal with someone racking up some serious profits very quickly. After all, it can happen just by sheer luck.
Since we're being a bit nostalgic here and mentioning TopStep being the first company - their initial Combines were actually quite bad. Very unrealistic parameters and a fixed time schedule for reaching your target.
In other words - pretty much set up to have the would-be-trader fail and generate income from subscription fees.
These days I'd say the overall programs are fairly realistic as long as the trader is disciplined, patient and conservative on the leverage. If it's a good idea cost wise is more uncertain.
For me at the moment I consider it an option priced @ $350 to give me $5K in margin assuming I pass. As I don't want to trade my own live account right now it's not a bad bet for me personally.
I don't get involved with Ponzi schemes, Online gambling, Wire fraud, HYIP (High Investment Yield Programs) and PoS (Proof of Stake) schemes. I am sure that even thieves and Identity scammers use the same justification that it is a zero sum game.
These are not my moral issues, just that I do not directly or indirectly torment another soul. I love discounts, promotions and deals but I don't expect handouts. Stealing someone's labor is wrong. You have to get a better understanding of markets and trading to realize that legitimate law abiding trading is not online gambling and it is not stealing someone's money.
Trading is an ancient business. Traders in the old days used to fill up a wooden cart with veggies (or even plant vegggie trees on them), roam around the villages, exploit arbitrage, and gain or lose to other traders with faster, bigger carts. P&L from normal business is okay; from cartels, it is not.
It is very common for profitable trading systems to become popular and ultimately lose edge. Prop shops and other players will adapt, i.e., move on to other systems. Those that "break," as you put it, do so because they're unable to adapt. On this site alone, you will find many good resources in Elite section.
What would be more fun is this: Let us build a Humanoid that earns its own living from online trading.
Well, I do respect your opinion and stance on the subject, although I do not think it's quite accurate. It's definitely not a ponzi scheme, nor is it a fraud as far as I can tell. This relates to the commonly known programs among where a few are sponsors on this site. It's possible that there are outright scams, but they are not subject of this discussion.
If you don't want to indirectly torment another soul as you put it I do not think you should participate in zero sum games either.
I've endured very painful losses which was profits in another trader's pocket. Likewise, when I've made substantial profits they was substantial losses in another trader's pocket. If you're a consistently profitable trader you're effectively taking money out of the other participant's pockets and for many of these traders it would actually be tormenting.
If you sign up for one of these get funded programs and assuming you made sure to understand what it is before doing so - I don't see why anyone would have any complaints with regards to what their subscription fees are used for.