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Difference in simulator trading the ES and live trading with a small account>>>


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  #1 (permalink)
 budfox 
Toronto
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra
Broker: MB
Trading: ES
Posts: 313 since Jun 2013

Hi there,

So I have been paper trading for the past couple of weeks and feel I would like to make the transition towards opening an account starting to actually trade (I have a strict trading plan).

My question is: What are the main differences when trading live as opposed to in simulation,
aside from the psychological aspect

Slippage? How bad is slippage in trading the ES in Ninja?

I am thinking of trading the ES using Ninja (is there a free version?).

Thanks,

BF.

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  #3 (permalink)
 budfox 
Toronto
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra
Broker: MB
Trading: ES
Posts: 313 since Jun 2013


So I was doing more research and I came across this:

"In electronic futures trading, limit orders are filled on a “first come, first served” basis, meaning if there are currently 600 contracts trying to sell at 855.50 and you place an order to sell 5 at 855.50, 600 contracts need to get filled before you start to get filled. So depending on how many contracts trade at each 855.50 tick you may need to see several ticks at that price before your order is filled, in fact 605 contracts have to trade at 855.50 before all 5 of your contracts are filled."

I am surprised nobody mentioend this to me.

So if I placed an order at 855.25 and it hit 855.50, regardless of how many contracts there are they will fill my order right?

I really want to know what are the main differences between sim and live trading besides thewell discussed issue of psychological affect.

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  #4 (permalink)
 
lifeguardsteve88's Avatar
 lifeguardsteve88 
Pompano Beach, Florida, USA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: S5 Trader, Ninja Trader
Broker: Stage5/ IQfeed
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budfox View Post
So I was doing more research and I came across this:



So if I placed an order at 855.25 and it hit 855.50, regardless of how many contracts there are they will fill my order right?


If there are already 600 limit oders pending when you place your limit order, there would have to a demand of 600 "market orders" to clear all of them before your order gets to the front of the queue, to be filled by the 601st "market order' purchase at that price. When there is a long queue like that it is common for the price to pull away before your turn in the queue comes up, thus you won't get filled if that happens. It could return to that price point once it pulls away, and if you are still in the queue (you haven't canceled your limit order once the price pulls away), you MAY get filled on the second (or third, or fourth) time it hits that price point.

I'm new to all this so if I'm wrong in my explanation I'm sure someone will kindly correct me.

Cheers!

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  #5 (permalink)
 
MarketPilot's Avatar
 MarketPilot 
Des Moines IA USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: InverstorRT, NinjaTrader
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budfox View Post
So I have been paper trading for the past couple of weeks and feel I would like to make the transition towards opening an account starting to actually trade (I have a strict trading plan).

My question is: What are the main differences when trading live as opposed to in simulation,aside from the psychological aspect

Do not under estimate the psychological side. For me this was a tough battle. I thought I had a decent trade plan but had to figure out how to take most all of the desecration out of my entries before I could beat my monkeys and not fall into bad trading.


Quoting 
Slippage? How bad is slippage in trading the ES in Ninja?

I feel slippage depends on where and how you are entering the market. When using Limit orders, the ES may not "back and fill" your entry.


Quoting 
I am thinking of trading the ES using Ninja (is there a free version?).

Ninja has a free version. And it can work good to get you started. The biggest drawback for me was I wanted OCO (one Cancels other) orders for Targets and Stops. I do not believe you can do these entries with the Free version. But do not let that stop you from trying the free version for initial sim trading.

Then you can decide if you want the OCO Profit and Target orders.

Trade Wise, Trade Well

John
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  #6 (permalink)
 
MarketPilot's Avatar
 MarketPilot 
Des Moines IA USA
 
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budfox View Post
So if I placed an order at 855.25 and it hit 855.50, regardless of how many contracts there are they will fill my order right?

If you are a seller at 855.25 and the market prints 1 order at 855.50, you would be filled as all the order book at 855.25 has to all be filled before we can print any 855.50 orders.

Trade Wise, Trade Well

John
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  #7 (permalink)
 budfox 
Toronto
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra
Broker: MB
Trading: ES
Posts: 313 since Jun 2013


MarketPilot View Post
If you are a seller at 855.25 and the market prints 1 order at 855.50, you would be filled as all the order book at 855.25 has to all be filled before we can print any 855.50 orders.

So what you are trying to say, that if I take a short position....and buy back at 855.25, you have to sell my contract tothe buyers who want to buy at 55.25, before the ones who want to buy at 55.50?

Thanks for the reply

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  #8 (permalink)
 budfox 
Toronto
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra
Broker: MB
Trading: ES
Posts: 313 since Jun 2013


MarketPilot View Post
If you are a seller at 855.25 and the market prints 1 order at 855.50, you would be filled as all the order book at 855.25 has to all be filled before we can print any 855.50 orders.

How is the fill process different to the fill process of buying a stock (not futures)....or is it the same.

I notice that even in the simulator when price hits 1611 for a bit , my order isnt filled. Generally it is filled if price "sits there for a bit" (in the DOM).

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  #9 (permalink)
 
MarketPilot's Avatar
 MarketPilot 
Des Moines IA USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: InverstorRT, NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Trading: ES
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budfox View Post
So what you are trying to say, that if I take a short position....and buy back at 855.25, you have to sell my contract tothe buyers who want to buy at 55.25, before the ones who want to buy at 55.50?

Thanks for the reply

Not exactly. I was trying to say when you place the order to short sell, you are at the back of the line to get filled. If the trend is down, the market may not retrace enough for you to get filled. See the example below



Here I placed my order to sell 2 contracts at 1630.25. You can see that there are a total of 34 offers to sell at this price. I'm the last two (33 and 34) at the time I click in the order. It is possible that 34 or more market order Buys happen at 1630.25 and I get filled at this price without the market going higher. But as you stated, you see the market touch this price, but you do not get filled as a seller.

Usually the market will "go through" your price before you to get filled. See below.



Here Buyers have driven the price up above your offer of 1630.25. So now your are filled and want the market to go back down to enable you to buy at a lower price.


budfox View Post
How is the fill process different to the fill process of buying a stock (not futures)....or is it the same.

I notice that even in the simulator when price hits 1611 for a bit , my order isnt filled. Generally it is filled if price "sits there for a bit" (in the DOM).

Buying is the same only in reverse. A limit order to buy may not get filled unless the market sells 1 tick lower than your purchase price. The process should be the same for futures or stocks.

Hope this helps.

Trade Wise, Trade Well

John
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Last Updated on July 6, 2013


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