VirtualMark 

It's 30% from one day, not one trade: https://support.apextraderfunding.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404875002139-What-are-the-Consistency-Rules-For-PA-and-Funded-Prop-Accounts- Which to be honest is quite an annoying rule, as you could have a really good day with lots of trades. I could understand it if it were for one trade, as that would combat the people who just want to go all in and get lucky. But 30% for a day is annoying, as it's natural to have really good days when the market is moving nicely. The 10 days trading is also annoying, as you could make a lot in the first few days but have no access to your money. Apex are promoting gambling type trading, and clearly make a lot from account fees and resets. If you don't believe this just look at their business model - they went from a 80% sale for the last few weeks to a 90% sale now. They are pretty much always on sale, and encourage people to spend and spend in the hope they get lucky. The evaluation is deliberately easy to pass, with pretty much zero rules, just don't hit the drawdown. You can do it all in one trade if you like then just scalp $1 a day for the next 6 days, they don't care. You can put 10 lots on CPI and just hope for the best, it's all good, this extremely irresponsible type of trading is fine in the evaluation, so they can charge you more to activate your "funded" account. They say they want a partner from you, but in reality they just want you to pay their fees. Why else would they charge you a "one time fee" to set up an account? If you're such a good trader why don't they fund you with real money? The fact that they have easy evaluation then increased rules in the funded accounts reveals where their priorities lie. And if you accidentally cancel the wrong account, or forget to cancel one, or buy the wrong one, or have platform issues that cause your trades to go wrong(the Tradovate SIM regularly goes wrong), or an asteroid hits the Earth and wipes out civilization, then guess what? Tough luck. They'll instantly let you know that you agreed NO REFUNDS FOR ANY REASON. A great way to treat a "business partner" and build a long term relationship.

Thanks for that correction on the 30% day not trade. The 10 days can be annoying I agree, but prevents gamblers from winning I guess.

I don't think they make the majority of their money from fees, to be honest. With how much they are paying out, they have to be successfully copy-trading at least a few people. Sure it accounts for some amount of their revenue, but I feel like it has to be 20% or less.

I also don't think their sales promote gambling (I just see it as a way to stock up on accounts for cheap). Maybe if someone is coming from that yolo / gambling mindset then its just enabling that behavior, but it doesn't feel like they are promoting you to gamble the full account on a single volatile move (plus you just won't survive long in the eval or PA doing that )

Why else would they charge you a "one-time fee" to set up an account? I don't get this point. Are you saying you'd rather pay a monthly subscription over a one-time fee? There is that option if that's what you're looking for.

If you're such a good trader why don't they fund you with real money? That's just not how any of these prop firms work. Once you pass their initial test, which hopefully checks to make sure you aren't a gambler, then they all put you in a "live sim" account. Now some will switch you to a live non-sim account, but there's really no benefit for them to do that. They have less risk exposure if they just keep you in a sim, copy the confluence of trades, and pay you out if you make money.

The fact that they have easy evaluation then increased rules in the funded accounts reveals where their priorities lie. The cash amount to request payout is less in PA (2600 vs 3000), but the days trading is more (10 vs 7)

Also what issues have you had with the Tradovate SIM accounts? I've been using all this year and havent had any issues.

And to be clear, I'm not necessarily defending Apex (I use them, but I still am skeptical about longevity), but it seems like you had some misconceptions about how the online prop firms stay alive and make money.

VirtualMark 

That's interesting. So you're supposed to trade 10 days, then request a payout, then wait until they approve or deny it? Then somehow manage to fit another 10 days in that trading month? I don't see how that's possible, and seems like another crafty trick to deny payouts or make you wait until the next month. It's all about delay delay delay for them by the sounds of it. Which will mean an increased chance of blowing your account, they know what they're doing. How long do they take to approve or deny a request?

You can still trade while the request is pending. Once the request is approved then that amount is deducted from your account. But until that point you can still trade. And if you lose that money in that time trading then the request cant go through obviously

jlabtrades 

You can still trade while the request is pending. Once the request is approved then that amount is deducted from your account. But until that point you can still trade. And if you lose that money in that time trading then the request cant go through obviously

How long does it take though?

jlabtrades 

Thanks for that correction on the 30% day not trade. The 10 days can be annoying I agree, but prevents gamblers from winning I guess. I don't think they make the majority of their money from fees, to be honest. With how much they are paying out, they have to be successfully copy-trading at least a few people. Sure it accounts for some amount of their revenue, but I feel like it has to be 20% or less. I also don't think their sales promote gambling (I just see it as a way to stock up on accounts for cheap). Maybe if someone is coming from that yolo / gambling mindset then its just enabling that behavior, but it doesn't feel like they are promoting you to gamble the full account on a single volatile move (plus you just won't survive long in the eval or PA doing that ) Why else would they charge you a "one-time fee" to set up an account? I don't get this point. Are you saying you'd rather pay a monthly subscription over a one-time fee? There is that option if that's what you're looking for. If you're such a good trader why don't they fund you with real money? That's just not how any of these prop firms work. Once you pass their initial test, which hopefully checks to make sure you aren't a gambler, then they all put you in a "live sim" account. Now some will switch you to a live non-sim account, but there's really no benefit for them to do that. They have less risk exposure if they just keep you in a sim, copy the confluence of trades, and pay you out if you make money. The fact that they have easy evaluation then increased rules in the funded accounts reveals where their priorities lie. The cash amount to request payout is less in PA (2600 vs 3000), but the days trading is more (10 vs 7) Also what issues have you had with the Tradovate SIM accounts? I've been using all this year and havent had any issues. And to be clear, I'm not necessarily defending Apex (I use them, but I still am skeptical about longevity), but it seems like you had some misconceptions about how the online prop firms stay alive and make money.

If you're just going to go through my post and disagree with every single point I make then I won't bother to respond any further. I will this time, but I don't see the point in talking to someone who just wants to "win" and can't agree with anything.

For example, defending Tradovate. It's been an absolute train wreck since Ninja Trader acquired them. Just look into it, or check the service status sometime, I've seen dozens of outages this year alone.

With regard to the one time fee, you can currently get a Tradovate evaluation account for $18, but the fee if you pass is $160, yet you are trading the exact same thing - a sim account. So they are charging you just for the sake of it, as it doesn't cost them anything. What is the fee for exactly, perhaps you know something I don't?

With regard to your comment "that's not how these prop firms work", yes several do. Tradeday fund you with real money, so does Topstep. Apex use sim and that's my problem with them, their goals are not aligned with mine. Yes, there's a chance if you're really good that they'll copy your trades. But I think you'll find that the vast majority of traders fail and spend a lot more than they get paid out.

At the end of the day it's a personal decision to use these firms or not, and I see them as a good way to practice without risking your life savings. But I don't feel they're honest with their marketing or with what they want from us.

VirtualMark 

How long does it take though?

After you request payout during the window period (1st-5th / 15th - 20th), the approvals happen anytime after the request, up to 9 days after the request window closes, i.e. approved anytime 2-14th / 16-30th.

After approved you are paid anytime from day after approval until up to 10 days after the request window closes, i.e. you will be paid anytime from the 3-15th or 17-30th

Here are some other thoughts:

• Only PA payment requests that are in PENDING status can be canceled
• If you request that your PA payment be canceled or denied, their account will not be available for further withdrawals until the next payment request period.
• If you have requested payment and the status is PENDING and you blow the account, you will not get paid.
• If you have requested a payment and the status is APPROVED and you blow the account, you will still get the approved request amount.

My personal experience was that approvals happened 1-2 biz days after the request, and money was in the bank 2-7 biz days after approval

jlabtrades 

After you request payout during the window period (1st-5th / 15th - 20th), the approvals happen anytime after the request, up to 9 days after the request window closes, i.e. approved anytime 2-14th / 16-30th. After approved you are paid anytime from day after approval until up to 10 days after the request window closes, i.e. you will be paid anytime from the 3-15th or 17-30th Here are some other thoughts: Only PA payment requests that are in PENDING status can be canceled If you request that your PA payment be canceled or denied, their account will not be available for further withdrawals until the next payment request period. If you have requested payment and the status is PENDING and you blow the account, you will not get paid. If you have requested a payment and the status is APPROVED and you blow the account, you will still get the approved request amount. My personal experience was that approvals happened 1-2 biz days after the request, and money was in the bank 2-7 biz days after approval

So you need 10 days for a payout, and you can have 2 payout days per month. Yet they can take 1-9 days to pay you, and you then need to trade 10 days after your payout approval, so I'm wondering how you're supposed to get 10 days by the next payout date?

Lets take this month as an example. If I requested a payout on 20th August, that'd fall on a Sunday, so it probably wouldn't get looked at until Monday, 1-9 days later my 10 days will start again? It seems like it could be quite hard to get 2 payouts a month?

VirtualMark 

So you need 10 days for a payout, and you can have 2 payout days per month. Yet they can take 1-9 days to pay you, and you then need to trade 10 days after your payout approval, so I'm wondering how you're supposed to get 10 days by the next payout date? Lets take this month as an example. If I requested a payout on 20th August, that'd fall on a Sunday, so it probably wouldn't get looked at until Monday, 1-9 days later my 10 days will start again? It seems like it could be quite hard to get 2 payouts a month?

Its 10 days from request date, not approval date.

If you request payout on Aug 20th, then you have another 12 days of trading to get your 10 trading days in

https://support.apextraderfunding.com/hc/en-us/articles/10403497070363-How-do-payouts-work-Payouts-Withdrawal-Profit-Split-Percentages-

Apex is the best model of prop companies on the market. But if Apex were really about successful traders, you wouldn't have to qualify a second time with a trailing stop after you've "capitalized" on another SIM-account before you can order a first (limited) payout. Apparently Apex wouldn't be able to handle that financially, otherwise they would implement it the same way. The millions paid out that are advertised only become meaningful when you put them in relation to the income. It would be nice if Apex actually became trader-friendly and implemented the payout modalities as described. No second qualification and the ability to cash out daily winnings without trailing again. Just like on a "real" account.

VirtualMark 

If you're just going to go through my post and disagree with every single point I make then I won't bother to respond any further. I will this time, but I don't see the point in talking to someone who just wants to "win" and can't agree with anything. For example, defending Tradovate. It's been an absolute train wreck since Ninja Trader acquired them. Just look into it, or check the service status sometime, I've seen dozens of outages this year alone. With regard to the one time fee, you can currently get a Tradovate evaluation account for $18, but the fee if you pass is $160, yet you are trading the exact same thing - a sim account. So they are charging you just for the sake of it, as it doesn't cost them anything. What is the fee for exactly, perhaps you know something I don't? With regard to your comment "that's not how these prop firms work", yes several do. Tradeday fund you with real money, so does Topstep. Apex use sim and that's my problem with them, their goals are not aligned with mine. Yes, there's a chance if you're really good that they'll copy your trades. But I think you'll find that the vast majority of traders fail and spend a lot more than they get paid out. At the end of the day it's a personal decision to use these firms or not, and I see them as a good way to practice without risking your life savings. But I don't feel they're honest with their marketing or with what they want from us.

I didn't disagree with everything you said and I'm also not trying to win, sorry if you took it that way. Just sharing my opinions, especially those that may differ from you which is the whole point of this thread, no?

Tradovate has been an absolute train wreck since Ninja Trader acquired them. Just look into it You were the one who said they were an issue, I was just asking what the issues were that you had experienced. Like I said I've been trading with them since Jan and havent had issues except for that one site wide outage (there was only one that I remember). I didnt see any major forum postings about issues either.

Totally agree prop firms aren't for everyone. They way I see it I pay $180 (eval + PA) to play with $2500 with Apex. Risk is if they go under then I any potential profits I havent withdraw, and also that I've essentially already "made" them $5600 before I can withdraw the $2500. Not sure why they split up the eval and PA into seperate accounts with different fees. I assume it due reduce the risks of someone winning big on a gamble in a single account and then getting paid out (harder to do that twice in a row than once if there was only one account).

Tradeday seems to be more expensive, and only offers monthly subscription with a much higher target threshold. In fact for the same trailing max drawdown as an Apex 50k (2500) you have to pay $350 per month and hit a profit target for 7500. Thats more even considering the Apex two-step process of eval and PA. Topstep is at least a little more reasonable at 99 monthly for 3K max drawdown and target of 6000.

Money aside, both of these firms place you into live-sim or demo accounts first, where your orders do not actually hit the tape. Topstep emails you can switch to live, just like Apex. Another thing to note is that "live" accounts do pay more for the data connections, no matter which firm you go with. Tradeday at least seems to be automatic live once your hit your target.

jlabtrades 

I didn't disagree with everything you said and I'm also not trying to win, sorry if you took it that way. Just sharing my opinions, especially those that may differ from you which is the whole point of this thread, no? Tradovate has been an absolute train wreck since Ninja Trader acquired them. Just look into it You were the one who said they were an issue, I was just asking what the issues were that you had experienced. Like I said I've been trading with them since Jan and havent had issues except for that one site wide outage (there was only one that I remember). I didnt see any major forum postings about issues either. Totally agree prop firms aren't for everyone. They way I see it I pay $180 (eval + PA) to play with $2500 with Apex. Risk is if they go under then I any potential profits I havent withdraw, and also that I've essentially already "made" them $5600 before I can withdraw the $2500. Not sure why they split up the eval and PA into seperate accounts with different fees. I assume it due reduce the risks of someone winning big on a gamble in a single account and then getting paid out (harder to do that twice in a row than once if there was only one account). Tradeday seems to be more expensive, and only offers monthly subscription with a much higher target threshold. In fact for the same trailing max drawdown as an Apex 50k (2500) you have to pay $350 per month and hit a profit target for 7500. Thats more even considering the Apex two-step process of eval and PA. Topstep is at least a little more reasonable at 99 monthly for 3K max drawdown and target of 6000. Money aside, both of these firms place you into live-sim or demo accounts first, where your orders do not actually hit the tape. Topstep emails you can switch to live, just like Apex. Another thing to note is that "live" accounts do pay more for the data connections, no matter which firm you go with. Tradeday at least seems to be automatic live once your hit your target.

It seems to be more of an issue with sim accounts on Tradovate rather than real live cash accounts, but I've noticed outages more months for the last year:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FuturesTrading/comments/13bqmpm/tradovate_is_fritzing_out_again_stay_in_demo_if/
https://www.reddit.com/r/FuturesTrading/comments/11l2owm/tradovate_down_working_orders/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tradovate/comments/11at9g5/anyone_elses_tradovate_down/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tradovate/comments/11atv4m/ninjatrader_is_deliberately_tanking_tradovate/

It's been so bad that even Topstep are not allowing Tradovate for new accounts. And aside from the unreliability, they have also made some really bad changes, such as charging for orderflow+ which puts VWAP behind a paywall. Or allowing group trading but not allowing bracket orders on group trades. It's a shambles, but I won't go on as this is a thread about Apex.

Yes Tradeday is more expensive, and you are only allowed one acccount. But the account max contracts scales up as your balance increases once funded so if you're good then you can have a much larger account. You can withdraw profits immediately, and there are no consistency rule. It's real money though not sim, which is why you have to pay the data fees as you're classed as a professional. Although again, I do wonder why they make us pay these fees if they're expecting to make a ton of money from us. If I found a goose that laid golden eggs I wouldn't charge it rent!

Tradeday also only allow you one account, and have expensive reset fees. They seem to genuinely be looking for disciplined traders, and the idea is that there is a financial penalty for blowing your account. In comparison, Apex running 90% sales makes it easier to blow through several accounts and pass a few, then pay a more expensive fee to trade a "funded" account which in reality is the exact same sim that you paid $18 for, but now have added rules such as news trading, consistency, no flipping etc, which are all ok in the evaluation. Makes me think they want to attract the gamblers, but don't actually want them trading live. They just want to keep them buying evaluations and then blowing live accounts(as you said they won't get far). I'd imagine some people buy 10 accounts and only pass 1, which hardly sets them up for success in a live market.

Yeah you're right it seems that Topstep put you on a sim first now. They used to be real money though, that's a shame.