Really great questions, every single one of them.

I would ask another: if you're going to buy something lower now that will be higher soon, how can you do that unless you buy when most others don't want to? Their buying, which you hope will happen but which may not, has to come in after yours, or you won't be making any money, and may lose. If there were a standard SOP or a standard strategy that everyone followed, and if you did too, then you would never be ahead of anyone else in your buying decision and you would not be making much or any money. This is a big difference between trading and flying an airplane, or doing almost everything else.

I would love it if there were a standard right way to make a trading decision that always or at least usually worked. But if I knew it, so would you, and so would everyone else, and you, and they, would be in there buying along with me, not after me. Who would then be boosting the price for me to profit after I bought? Who would buy when I want to sell, if the SOP said it was time to sell?

Of course, it's not exactly that simple, and I think there are many good ways to trade, but trading is fundamentally competitive, and you have to do something that is not the known, relied-upon, standard way to do things. Someone has to disagree with you for you to even trade with them.

This helps explain why it is hard, and why the statistics on the number of profitable traders are so low. It's also why there is a huge appetite for solutions from vendors who will promise anything, usually without being able to deliver.

Someone may be giving good mentoring, and I think some vendors are selling good products, but either way, they can only take you so far. Hopefully, by being exposed to a variety of approaches a person can form their own conclusions about what to pursue and whom to rely on, but it will always come down to how an individual puts it together, maybe drawing on many totally different sources and their own experience and experimentation.

I think we can help each other, and learn from each other, or I wouldn't be on this forum (where we try to do just that, or create the environment for it), but I'm afraid I think that after a certain point, it is individual and that we learn on our own. There can be some of both.

I really liked your questions. Maybe you won't like my answer, but it's what I've got. I think it gives some leeway for a trader to pull ahead, but I think there's only so much anyone is going to get from someone else.

Bob.

I think this was my point, at least the "not easy to do" part. There are lots of ways to trade, and since you are always in competition with other participants, who probably know as much as you, or even more , it is hard.



This was my other point. (Not about commercials and specs, just that it's competitive, which is why it's hard.) Not everyone is winning the race.

And actually, this one was too:



I've got to learn not to be so long-winded. "Markets are competitive, and that's why they are hard to make money in" would have done the job I wanted, with fewer words. However anyone puts it, that's the reason.

And of course, you can read books about trend following, and a lot of other things too, but there are very few good trend followers, or any other type of trader. I guess I had another point, too.

Anyway, I don't disagree with what you said.

Bob.

I agree with most of what you said but I wanted to highlight that this part is not correct

"I would love it if there were a standard right way to make a trading decision that always or at least usually worked. But if I knew it, so would you, and so would everyone else, and you, and they, would be in there buying along with me, not after me. Who would then be boosting the price for me to profit after I bought? Who would buy when I want to sell, if the SOP said it was time to sell?"
This is why I mentioned about the commercials and speculators. When the commercials are buying they don't really care about you or your trading strategies, etc. It's not really spec v spec all of the time although that happens.
If you remember the Turtles of Richard Dennis fame, they all had the same rules but yet did not make the same amount of money. This should tell you that even if there was a standard way the outcomes vary.
It's always great having these discussions especially it enhances your knowledge.
Thanks

...

I also agree with SMCJB - "Information". For me, information is essential. So I try to get ahold of it any way I can by education or indicator. (Since in my brain an indicator "indicates.")

Funny thing this morning (if I may mention again) I was invited into a webinar for an indicator I had purchased. The Vendor says "come and see how one of his customer trades his indicator successfully". I was excited b/c I have had this indicator for almost a year and it I am having issues figuring it out. I keep getting stopped out. So there I am watching as the other trader is using the Vendor's indicator, AS WELL AS two others from a different Vendor. So in the end it wasn't one indicator, it was three. And I don't mind that. I think the other customer wise for using more than one for confluence But I was discouraged because I never learned how to use the one expensive indicator. Apparently, if I wanted to trade like the other successful customer, I would need another $150 a month to rent the indicators he includes in his trading. And sadly, the audience reminded me of me; "what are those called and how do I get those". We all want information.

...

Or what about when you have an ex floor trader who sells his trading ideas as a result of his floor experience? I guess I hope my wallet can help me get some sort of advantage by buying this information? The question is, do they really have ideas that work? I think they do. I don't know about you, but one other related issue from my experience is the 'closed fist' trader. For lack of a better term, it seems like nobody wants to give away their "secrets" even if you pay for them.

I guess many work so hard to move up the trading food chain they don't want to share what took years to understand.
...
. Which led me to purchase an indicator that would help with BOS and CHofCH since I dont see it so well. But I still need to understand it.

...

As I have grown in the "trading faith", I think BOS is quite important information because it speaks of candle action. So when you mention competition, I ask myself how does/can the indicator or the trading edge reveal price action? And how can I use that to beat others?
...

So after thousands and thousands of dollars, I guess my question is; where is the straight shooter? Where is the Vendor who can provide the fundamentals to understand? You said "Someone may be giving good mentoring, and I think some vendors are selling good products, but either way, they can only take you so far." That is exactly what I am looking for. An indicator or a mentoring that can take me any distance. Just an arrow in the general direction and I can take it from there. "so far" is still successful in my book.

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FD, as a guy who has blown several grand on rental/purchase of 'magical' proprietary indicators, let me offer helpful advice:

Point 1: The day you realize that 1) their expensive indicators aren't that great (you can still lose, right?), and 2) you can do just as well with common, off-the-shelf free indicators, you will have made real progress. The power is not in the indicator, it's in the trader who understands what the indicator is telling him about the market, and knows what to do/not do with that information. The gurus who I now regret following all sold 'magical' indicators that were essential for using their trading strategy.

Point 2: The gurus I got lasting benefit from did not sell indicators; instead they sold monthly subscriptions to their trade room, with the 1st week free to check-out what they were doing, They were selling instruction in their trading methodology, and you were able to follow along in the live market and see their strategies work (or not), with commentary from them in real-time. After several months of trading with them (I saw wins and losses, so no secret trades here), once I realized that I was able to read the setups as well as they did, I knew I was ready to go solo and drop the sub (although some people stay bc they like the comraderie). THIS is the instruction and mentoring you want. FOR BONUS POINTS: take the method you just paid to learn, and tweak it to fit your own style ... maybe even improve it a little. True Mastery.

I think this was my point, at least the "not easy to do" part. There are lots of ways to trade, and since you are always in competition with other participants, who probably know as much as you, or even more , it is hard.







This was my other point. (Not about commercials and specs, just that it's competitive, which is why it's hard.) Not everyone is winning the race.



And actually, this one was too:







I've got to learn not to be so long-winded. "Markets are competitive, and that's why they are hard to make money in" would have done the job I wanted, with fewer words. However anyone puts it, that's the reason.



And of course, you can read books about trend following, and a lot of other things too, but there are very few good trend followers, or any other type of trader. I guess I had another point, too.



Anyway, I don't disagree with what you said.



Bob.

----------------------------------------



FD, as a guy who has blown several grand on rental/purchase of 'magical' proprietary indicators, let me offer helpful advice:



Point 1: The day you realize that 1) their expensive indicators aren't that great (you can still lose, right?), and 2) you can do just as well with common, off-the-shelf free indicators, you will have made real progress. The power is not in the indicator, it's in the trader who understands what the indicator is telling him about the market, and knows what to do/not do with that information. The gurus who I now regret following all sold 'magical' indicators that were essential for using their trading strategy.



Point 2: The gurus I got lasting benefit from did not sell indicators; instead they sold monthly subscriptions to their trade room, with the 1st week free to check-out what they were doing, They were selling instruction in their trading methodology, and you were able to follow along in the live market and see their strategies work (or not), with commentary from them in real-time. After several months of trading with them (I saw wins and losses, so no secret trades here), once I realized that I was able to read the setups as well as they did, I knew I was ready to go solo and drop the sub (although some people stay bc they like the comraderie). THIS is the instruction and mentoring you want. FOR BONUS POINTS: take the method you just paid to learn, and tweak it to fit your own style ... maybe even improve it a little. True Mastery.