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I recognize I'm taking a bit of a shot in the dark asking for this sort of advice here, but here goes--
What would full-time or otherwise demonstrably successful traders recommend to an aspiring trader regarding strategies to replace one's current salary via trading or investing so that they can leave their current FT job to dedicate more of their time to studying trading?
A brief summary of my background: I dabbled with trading and finance in general as discipline a great deal in my studies earlier in my life (i.e., most notably, completed a minor in business school at a top 10 U.S. public university), but chose to work in biotech for my first few years out of undergrad. I started digging deeper into trading again in March this year and have been obsessed ever since. I've recently signed up for the CMT (Chartered Market Technician) level 1 course & exam and currently plan to work through level 3. I would love nothing more right now than to leave my current FT job so that I can study math, stats, programming, and trading all day long, but replacing FT income + benefits is of course a bit of a hill to climb without a professional background in trading. All-in, I'd like to bring in at least six figures in net annual income to keep my current lifestyle afloat and to provide cushioning against the risks inherent to making a living from trading (FWIW, I live in a MCOL city and am frugal with expenses).
Trading and investing hypothetically offer an enormous breadth of potential strategies for achieving this task, but any sane person considering quitting their job would do well to be as measured and intentional in their approach to this. A number of avenues that come to mind initially:
1. Options: Incredible depth to this area. I have multiple editions of Hull's Options, Futures, and Other Derivatives, including the latest, so I could certainly cover this from an academically rigorous approach, but such an approach may not be strictly necessary, it seems. I personally have made a number of trades netting 20%+ gains on individual trades and have seen others make over 100%, so I suspect the (careful) use of Options would be crucial to someone in my position.
2. Futures via prop firm: I have been working at this since March and so am pretty familiar with the basics behind the mechanics of the leverage, limited VaR/value at risk, benefits of having multiple accounts "copytrading" with multiple firms, etc. I have been particularly interested in the idea of using gains from Futures trading to funnel into Options trades, and would love to hear thoughts regarding this.
3. Dividend-investing: I have next to no exposure to this but have heard of some intriguing strategies toward this end.
4. Stocks: There are a number of websites and other tools to scan for stocks likely to make very large-scale intraday moves. One service I used briefly in the past supposedly helped someone to make "enough money to buy a house", so I could see this having real potential.
Opening the floor now-- if you were to try to replace the income & benefits of a FT job with trading in order to spend more time on studying trading (i.e., generating substantial, reliable income prior to being an expert), how would you approach it?
3Aug25 Edit: Some (hopefully) helpful context based on comments--
1. I have no dependents.
2. I've been trading with prop firms (Tradeday and Topstep mostly) without having gotten a funded account since March. I got one of Topstep's "XFA" accounts without having satisfied the $200+ day rule once, and I have gotten as far as 7 successful days traded with $60 short of my profit target. I've saved a large number of both successful and unsuccessful performance reports and would be happy to share if valuable. One of the main points to takeaway from those reports -> I was overleveraging and didn't know much about what I was doing despite that I had a decent algorithm coded into TradingView.
3. I study charts obsessively. Not a single day has gone by since I started in March in which I have not spent hours of time studying trading. I research trading and paper trade in between my rest sets at the gym. I write down research ideas and pull up resources in the middle of the night before I fall asleep to look into in the morning, etc.
Treat what is going to be said with grain of salt.
Disclosure needs to made before I respond to your question.
It looks like you are looking for a response from successful traders, I am not one of them. In my personal opinion you can get good information from someone who is not successful yet but made an attempt to do that transition.
I hope you are realising that to answer your question is going to be very challenging. Let me explain why.
Are you single or with a family ? Do you have kids ? Is your partner supporting the idea ? Do you have the place to live and there is no loan attached to it. These questions are very critical, as they are going to derive your mental state. Mental state is super important in trading.
Another angle that needs to be looked at is the Average amount of time to take trader to be profitable. In my humble opinion 1 year is over optimistic.
So it means that you need to have a buffer of cash to support the family and cover existing expenses or have a partner who is going to be happy to go on a super tight budget to support your endeavour. Please do not forget that you need to have a trading capital. I don't know a single trader who haven't blown up his/her trading account at least once.
All listed option are good, and will be required large amount of time to master it, and have adv and disadv.
Let's take stocks and Dividend - this option do not require to leave you full time job until you actually reach the level that income is cover your expenses. Key thing to remember Past performance is not equal to future result.
Future and Option - will definitely require a screen time if you are going to day trade it.
Given that floor is open, lets make the music loud.
What really needs to be done is to answer the question: what are you looking from the market. Is it get reach quick or you love trading the market or you love doing Financial analysis and reading financial reports with economical forecast, Investment is way to go.
If it is day trading be ready for a super super long journey. This forum have traders who is doing it for 5+ years they still haven't got there or they are just at break even.
Once you are in the rate race, it is hard to get out. Let's be realistic, to archive something you need sacrifice something instead. Would it be time with your family, your personal life as that attention need to spent on something you want to archive. Don't forget that people around you need to understand and support you.
There is no easy transition, as you can't just transition from what you currently do to be a Surgeon or Pro Tennis player. So your best bet is do it in parallel or have millionaire parents. Do not waist time, study when you can. Record the market, play it back. Spend weekends doing market replays. Trade markets that are opens in your time zone.
Save money and when you feel you ready to fly, spread your wings and let us know in a personal journal here.
Legendary and occasionally successful index futures day trader
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Tradovate / Webull
Broker: Tradovate
Trading: Futures / 0dte SPY
Frequency: Many times daily
Duration: Minutes
Posts: 515 since May 2023
Thanks Given: 211
Thanks Received: 360
Time in the seat with proven results. Full stop.
Sounds like the bug bit ya! Having a deeper understanding of math and coding may be helpful, but it’s not necessary and doesn’t guarantee results. The courses and continuing education are always great, but same thing in my mind as the coding, it just helps you build a good foundation to grow upon. And targets are good to have, but thats like step 3/4 of a process, so don’t get too upset if you aren’t making it now
My opinion and what I’m personally doing is options in a personal account (not evaluation prop firm), for the section 1256 contract treatment on my taxes (60/40 long term/short term split of gains). Prop firms are nice to get started on a rhythm and getting consistent with your trades and setups, but the bad habit they teach you (over-leverage, poor and non realistic rules like live drawdown, non compounding gains and contract sizing, and worse gambling mentality on FOMC/earnings/ high volatility plays) out weigh their cons. Again I personally have used them and still do, but their 1099 disbursements for taxes really suck - take those and fund your personal account please. Also, copy trading across multiple accounts is not for your benefit, its a house edge that gets them more money from subs is all
For all of the other ones, yes of course. Any balanced and sophisticated trader will have multiple strategies, in multiple markets, in multiple financial instruments. Options are great, and I actually started on them before futures, but theta is a bitch and my day trading setups are the same in futures with better reward:risk ratio. I do like some of the larger options ideas like the wheel or leap strategies. The big gainers are usually 0dte or short expiry so the gamma is jacked if you get the direction and momentum right and choosing a far enough away delta but still reaching by a quick movement causes the 100’s of %’ers (risk = maximum [aka all the premium you pay], reward= maximumer)
Dividends can be good, but they’re overhyped IMO in social media and other guru talking points, if you are looking for retirement building its good to have some in there, but im not a huge fan. Maybe pair a options strat where you end up owning the stocks with a dividend stock for a win-win (either bank the premium or own the stock)
I dont really buy individual stocks of up and comers, but large caps if I want a more targeted exposure and risk compared to a market segment etf. You can, but if you are a good stock picker (without using insider information) honestly you should be doing futures or options. If you can pick the direction but not the time (which would kill you in options or over paying on premiums) then yes individual stocks could work, but again taking a multi week or month swing on a stock and tying your money up for a 30% gainer while you could have been day trading futures for 1-5% a day just doesn’t make sense to me
Your best bet for a full time job replacement, is something with consistently good gains, not big one offs. I like all 1256 contracts for this (SPX options, Futures) but futures are basically the same as options with no theta decay and everyone is trading the same strike price.
I loaded up some quick values into an online tax for Raleigh, and here’s what they come to if you made 150k on w2 vs prop vs futures. Most important is seeing how the 1099-NEC affects you, of course this isn’t tax advice but hopes it help to show why going to futures is beneficial from a tax standpoint
………………………..…..….…… Income …….. Federal tax …. State tax …. Take home
W2 income …………... $150,000 ….. $25,539 …………. $6,176 ………... $118,285
Futures ……………….. $150,000 …….… $18,475………………. $6,176……….…… $125,349
Options/Stocks .. $150,000 …….… $25,539 …………. $6,176 ……….. $118,285
Prop …………..…….... $150,000 …..…. $38,209 …………. $5,699 ………. $106,092
Let me know if you have any more questions, especially about the evaluation prop firms, been doing them for 3 years now
There are too many unknowns about your situation to give you tailored advice, so I’ll focus on the last part and your main question.
In the german language there is a saying that goes: Da beißt sich die Katze in den Schwanz.
Which translates to “That's the cat biting its own tail.”
Which basically means: That’s a catch-22.
Forget the idea of “I will now learn a little bit, with that knowledge I will make the same money as with my job and then I will learn more and make millions”. It doesn’t work that way.
You will never replace your job income with trading without putting time into studying trading. As soon as you generate substantial, reliable income with trading, you are already an expert.
So you’ll need to find time to study and actually trade. There are multiple ways and you can probably think of them yourself. For example, cutting your work hours, save up and take a sabbatical if you're already planning to look for another job anyway. I see you are using Ninjatrader. NT has a market replay function. You could use the replay mode to practice after work. If you have some time on your job to look at your device, try swing trading.
But again, it’s difficult to give advice without having more information. What would you say to someone who came to you asking to quit their job to become a rockstar after only taking a few guitar lessons?
——
Here are a few tips, in no particular order, that could be useful for a newbie trader:
- I see that you've already paid for a course. Just remember: putting money into this venture doesn't guarantee you'll get money out of it. It's perfectly fine to use the course to learn the basics and the terminology, but avoid spending endlessly on more courses.
- In addition to the above, forget all these YouTube and instagram or whatnot wannabe traders. They are all charlatans and scammers. Do not buy anything from them. Read this one again, this will save you a lot of money if you take it seriously.
I don’t know this service, but my default assumption is, that it’s a scam.
- The next special indicator you can buy will not make you profitable. Save your money.
- Don’t be an idiot and put a lot of money into your trading account before you've shown you can actually make money. Start as small as possible and prove yourself first.
- Go slow. Getting to where you want to be will take time. A lot of time. Don’t try to rush it by dumping a lot of money into your trading account.. Again, don’t be an idiot.
And while all of the above may sound a bit critical or cautious, don’t forget the most important part: have fun!
If you have managed to earn at least year's worth of salary in your regular job and saved it via trading, you can.
If you have more people dependent on you, multiply that by the number of people.
What is considered "Expert" in trading is the kind of subject that's worth debating, however, if you are not able to save up at least amount worth of your salary, by simple law of opportunity lost is enough to help to come to a judgment.
I'll refrain from commenting on skill/learnings needed/edge presence/psychology or what not.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Be an observer, You are not your trading performance, Stop thinking so much, Eliminate/reduce social media activity, Accept the randomness" - Josh
I went through this, so you can consider me an experimental specimen. This is strictly based on my experience and may not be universal. I want to keep it short, but I am glad to answer any specific questions you may have.
The reality is you can't become a successful full time trader unless your back is against the well. Quite simply, you won't do the things you need to do if you have any kind of a back up plan for failure. You have to burn all the bridges and rule out any alternative paths. This pertains to risk management and re-inventing yourself to become creative in ways you had never imagined before. This is like a catch 22 situation.
I quit my comfy high paying software job during COVID and went full-time trading. I had decently deep pocket and spouse's job took care of insurance for the family. But, I jumped in with no intention of going back. It was brutal initially. I thought I can make a living trading ES and CL futures. I was dead wrong. I tried so many things and finally settled down trading Options based on backtesting. I primarily trade SPX options now.
So, one piece of advice I will give you is, spend your time finding mathematical edges. It is hard to do and even if you find them, edges are constantly fleeting. You have to keep up with constant backtesting and adapt. That's the nature of the game. Other than learning basics and mechanics of Options and backtesting tools, any publicly available information (courses, videos, books etc) will not give you an edge. All the psychology stuff comes only for executing the edges you find.
Thanks for the reply and the helpful info. I've been focusing specifically on trying to become profitable with Futures via prop firms so that I can fund my own account to later move into Options but have struggled with that a bit. I have seen some people make decent money with some creative investing in dividend-yielding instruments, but as I've been focused on Futures and Options, I've not had much time to look into that or other means of trading/investing yet. I would like to stick with Futures long and see it through and feel like I could be on the cusp of that, but "not knowing what you don't know" is one persistent challenge I've been facing. My thinking behind taking the CMT course was that it would help me understand what a "complete" system of indicators should look like, but I really feel like I could start making consistent profit long before I finish the CMT course.
Currently, my indicator setup includes the Hurst exponent for regime classification / trend persistence, pivot points via cyclical analysis (i.e., Hurst cycles) and Elliott Wave theory, harmonic XABCD patterns, anchored volume profile, order flow/liquidity, anchored vwap, Keltner channels, and more. So, I've been hoping that perhaps I've been missing a component or two that, once I find and incorporate them, I will be ready to start making consistent profits, though as I write this I think I really just need better structure for my entry/exit conditions. I haven't yet determined the ranges of values across the various indicators I use that would constitute robust entry/exit conditions but have been faithfully trading the same symbol thinking focusing on just 1 symbol would provide me the experience needed to create such a system. I'm definitely open to constructive criticism on that (and anything else). I trade MNQ primarily and sometimes throw a trade or two at MES and MGC. Trying to predict tops and bottoms reliably for MNQ is notoriously challenging, but given its volatility, it really seems to stand out as the best instrument among the options offered by prop firms.
Intrigued to hear your thoughts on the above, and thanks again for lending a hand. I've posted my last performance report from last Friday in case it helps at all in diagnosing issues.
Legendary and occasionally successful index futures day trader
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Tradovate / Webull
Broker: Tradovate
Trading: Futures / 0dte SPY
Frequency: Many times daily
Duration: Minutes
Posts: 515 since May 2023
Thanks Given: 211
Thanks Received: 360
I feel like moving from futures to options is the wrong choice, as I see options are futures with just more risk for minimal or sometimes even negative reward comparably.
Indicators are great training wheels to help you understand market movements and get familiar with momentum / targets, but if you listen to a lot of season professionals in podcasts, you’ll hear one common thing - people don’t have much on their chart when day trading except for candle sticks and volume. Once you get confident in your setups and consistent in your gains you’ll be taking things off your chart, not adding them back. I’m one of these people myself, I used to have all types of EMAs MACD/RSI and all the other hot indicators you see on youtube - but in the recent years I found them more a hinderance than a help. Now all I have is vwap, the 2 and 2.5 std dev vwap, and volume on my charts.
So if you’re using them to help guide and give clarity on a setup and NOT a de-facto signal, then yeah you can try a few out, but adding more usually isn’t the answer and more of the sign of the current ones aren’t helping you out. I also really don't think you need all of the CMT’s to be a successful day trader and quit your job. Stick with the one you’re in now since you already paid, but know you don't need the others unless you see a personal benefit in them.
I trade MES and MNQ as well, and learning to trade these build versatile skills you can take anywhere. I would suggest transition your thinking from “hitting the top / bottom” of every trade, and instead think of catching the wave and taking it for a ride. You aren’t tying to predict the wave that will be the biggest peak, or know exactly how long it will last - but you are trying to identify when you are in fact moving (and in which direction) and know about where you want to exit.
I use the 5 min chart for the trend overview (I zoom out enough so I can see the entire day in the window) and I use a 30 second chart for my trade eateries and exits. If I think the trend we are in will continue, I wait for a entry zone (up trend would be a pullback down to a support area, down trend would be a rise into a resistance area) and try and ride as long as I feel comfortable (depends on how volatility the day is, are support resistance zones clear, or do I think its going to try and reverse soon) - often this is entering with multiple contracts and exiting at my target zones then letting my last few ride on a trailing stop in case it moves even more. If I think theres a reversal coming then I wait patiently for the closing move of the previous trend before - and if i miss it then I’m in the trade continue phase and wait patiently again for that better entry. Both of these I use the volume to help me understand how strong everything is.
This of course is what I found works for me, and it may not work for your setups or style, but no where in there did I wait for a golden cross, or a fair value gap, or a indicator to get to an exact value for my entry. Buying low and selling high is the age old mantra, but it’s really just as simple as that.
Looking at your metrics, that win rate needs to come up and same with the avg gain (or if you get that win rate to 90%+ then the win rate is okay). Are you getting in the wrong side of the trades, or not closing then they go against you? Try waiting more and taking less trades. Instead of entering cause you think its going to continue going one way without you, think where you stop would be and make that your entry. That would help increase your win% and avg profit.
The prop firms are a double edged sword too, they’re easy to launch and cheap to reload, but without dicliline they feed your gambling itch more than they make you a good day trader. Really try to limit yourself on number of accounts and resets and contracts you are entering while you are still learning. These companies make money when you blow up the account and have to restart, so if you are resetting more than one a month - I would say you’re better off in a pure sim environment with less fees and realistic contract sizing to drawdown, until you get the hang of it.
Trading: Primarily Energy but also a little Equities, Fixed Income, Metals, U308 and Crypto.
Frequency: Many times daily
Duration: Never
Posts: 5,241 since Dec 2013
Thanks Given: 4,584
Thanks Received: 10,523
As somebody that I think most would consider a successful trader, I think the answer to this question is easy. Don't do it. Your chances of quitting your job and being more successful/profitable trading than a good paying W2 job are very very low. Unpopular opinion but I'm confident it's the right one.
If you really must answer the Siren's call, at least trade part time first. Then if you are successful, what you make will be additive to your finances, enabling you to do more in your life.