kevinkdog 

If you care to share, what has been your experience in results/executions between the sim accounts and the real accounts? Did you find it easier to profit in the sim accounts as compared to the real account? I frequently see people crushing it in SIM but struggling with real accounts, curious if you have that experience. If you do see difference, why do you think there is a difference?

For me, transitioning from simulated accounts (PA) to live trading definitely added a layer of pressure. It’s not just about the money—it's also about recognizing all the effort that went into reaching this stage. You're typically in a PA for months, layered on top of the time it took to move from evaluation to PA. Even though I’ve been trading with a personal live account for a long time, the pressure felt different when it was a live prop account with this history of effort tied to it.

Honestly, I think this mental shift is the biggest hurdle. Once you’ve been through the cycle—going live, maybe facing setbacks, returning to practice, and then going live again—you start to handle the pressure better. Some trading firms even have a rule where you can’t start a new evaluation for a certain period after blowing up a live account. Not knowing whether that rule is strictly enforced can also weigh on you (my experience is that it isn't strictly enforced). It can be a lot, emotionally/mentally.

The last part that really strikes me is the difference in a perceived safety net. In a PA environment, there’s a fallback—you can fail and relatively easily move from eval to PA if you buy two evals and yolo trade. However, once you're in a live account, that perceived safety net disappears, amplifying the pressure you feel.

That's a long way to say, I think it messes with people's minds and makes them make bad trading decisions.

Jack22 

For me, transitioning from simulated accounts (PA) to live trading definitely added a layer of pressure. It’s not just about the money—it's also about recognizing all the effort that went into reaching this stage. You're typically in a PA for months, layered on top of the time it took to move from evaluation to PA. Even though I’ve been trading with a personal live account for a long time, the pressure felt different when it was a live prop account with this history of effort tied to it. Honestly, I think this mental shift is the biggest hurdle. Once you’ve been through the cycle—going live, maybe facing setbacks, returning to practice, and then going live again—you start to handle the pressure better. Some trading firms even have a rule where you can’t start a new evaluation for a certain period after blowing up a live account. Not knowing whether that rule is strictly enforced can also weigh on you (my experience is that it isn't strictly enforced). It can be a lot, emotionally/mentally. The last part that really strikes me is the difference in a perceived safety net. In a PA environment, there’s a fallback—you can fail and relatively easily move from eval to PA if you buy two evals and yolo trade. However, once you're in a live account, that perceived safety net disappears, amplifying the pressure you feel. That's a long way to say, I think it messes with people's minds and makes them make bad trading decisions.

Thanks for sharing that psychological/emotional perspective.

Have you noticed any difference in actual trading outside of emotions/psych? For example, maybe Setup X in SIM always worked, but Setup X does not work / does not get filled / has too much slippage in real account.

kevinkdog 

Thanks for sharing that psychological/emotional perspective. Have you noticed any difference in actual trading outside of emotions/psych? For example, maybe Setup X in SIM always worked, but Setup X does not work / does not get filled / has too much slippage in real account.

I thought that when I traded the live account I was going to get worse fills, but I had the opposite experience. My buddy used to trade similar setups to what I trade and when he was, our trades would sometimes happen on the same bar. For example, if I was going long, I would send a limit order at the close of an up bar, so the market would need to retrace slightly to get me filled. There were a lot of occasions where I would get filled and he wouldn't (he was in an evaluation account and I was in the live account). The same thing also happened on targets, I'd be long and price looked like the ask just touched my target and I would get filled. I've also left orders pending and forgot to cancel prior to news events and have gotten extremely favorable fills (compared to running a backtest--I run strategies with buttons so I can fully control live, but also backtest when needed).

I was really surprised because I felt that I consistently had better fills, or at least not any worse, when I was in the live account versus the PA (opposite to what most people probably expect). This was on the ES and NQ.

Outside of fills, I always had this feeling that "someone" could see my stops and entries in live because my average intra-trade drawdown (I don't have the stats to back it up, but this is generally how I felt) was always higher in live versus evaluation/PA. I started putting my stop extremely far away from price in live because price would too often get closer than "normal" to my stop. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it kind of felt like someone knew what I was doing and didn't like it. But I also feel like that in my personal live account from time to time, so not a real big change there. I would also generally say that my setups "last longer" in sim (eval and PA) than when I take them live (through prop or personal accounts).

Apex just came out with new rules sent to some users with funded accounts (phase 2 of their process: evaluation > sim funded > live funded ). Apparently this is in preparation and evaluation of their traders, those with sim funded accounts are

1. Not allowed to buy any new evaluation accounts (current and renewals are unaffected)
2. Not allowed to add to a losing position at all (they call this their DCA rule). Adding to positions in the green are allowed, but not a single contract more is allowed on any red position.
3. No mental stops are allowed, there must be actual stop orders immediately after entry
4. Entries and trades must follow some set of rules, and be consistent across days. Spot checks will be performed to ensure compliance
5. Stops cannot exceed 4X the profit target (assuming this means actual exit in this context) or 4X historical average profits
6. All sim funded accounts are immediately put on probation, which increases the minimum before a payout and requires a buffer after the payouts are removed

There are a few copies of this email going around X, I attached one from user pouletroti111 (

). It does not appear this went out to all sim funded customers, only a select few, so no sure how this was targeted, or if this is really the start of their live evaluation process, but its not a good look.

They also removed some products from being traded (10Y, and others) https://support.atf.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404866635547-What-Instruments-Can-I-Trade and put some traders with large profits from these trades on probation as well (claiming non real profits from unrealistic fills)

Even worse than all of this, there are even more users with consistent trades, that have video taped themselves following so ultra strict rules (2 cameras showing face and keyboard and screen, have to call out trades) and still have not been paid out 5 months after requesting (just scroll through the list of people that have tagged ATF on X https://x.com/search)...

If you are still trading with them, I would should suggest revaluating sticking with them, and if you have any unclaimed funds in funded accounts to think about if its worth the mental capital to keep playing their games. I personally did not feel like it and closed my accounts, just my 2 cents.

Apex used to be great, emphasis on used to, before TopStep reduced their prices and changed their payout policies it was the clear winner. But with these restrictions on payouts, and trading rules, and now this probation thing, I don't recommend it anymore

jlabtrades 

Apex just came out with new rules sent to some users with funded accounts (phase 2 of their process: evaluation > sim funded > live funded ). Apparently this is in preparation and evaluation of their traders, those with sim funded accounts are 1. Not allowed to buy any new evaluation accounts (current and renewals are unaffected) 2. Not allowed to add to a losing position at all (they call this their DCA rule). Adding to positions in the green are allowed, but not a single contract more is allowed on any red position. 3. No mental stops are allowed, there must be actual stop orders immediately after entry 4. Entries and trades must follow some set of rules, and be consistent across days. Spot checks will be performed to ensure compliance 5. Stops cannot exceed 4X the profit target (assuming this means actual exit in this context) or 4X historical average profits 6. All sim funded accounts are immediately put on probation, which increases the minimum before a payout and requires a buffer after the payouts are removed There are a few copies of this email going around X, I attached one from user pouletroti111 ( ). It does not appear this went out to all sim funded customers, only a select few, so no sure how this was targeted, or if this is really the start of their live evaluation process, but its not a good look. They also removed some products from being traded (10Y, and others) https://support.atf.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404866635547-What-Instruments-Can-I-Trade and put some traders with large profits from these trades on probation as well (claiming non real profits from unrealistic fills) Even worse than all of this, there are even more users with consistent trades, that have video taped themselves following so ultra strict rules (2 cameras showing face and keyboard and screen, have to call out trades) and still have not been paid out 5 months after requesting (just scroll through the list of people that have tagged ATF on X https://x.com/search)... If you are still trading with them, I would should suggest revaluating sticking with them, and if you have any unclaimed funds in funded accounts to think about if its worth the mental capital to keep playing their games. I personally did not feel like it and closed my accounts, just my 2 cents. Apex used to be great, emphasis on used to, before TopStep reduced their prices and changed their payout policies it was the clear winner. But with these restrictions on payouts, and trading rules, and now this probation thing, I don't recommend it anymore

It's a mystery why anyone would trade with APEX. There are a number of props which are well managed and reliable. TakeProfitTrader is one of them.
This lady is doing a bang up job of tracking props. https://futurestradingwithkellyann.com/
She also has a         group where a lot of information about props is discussed.
Traders who trade with Apex are gluttons for punishment. Makes zero sense.

"4. Entries and trades must follow some set of rules, and be consistent across days. Spot checks will be performed to ensure compliance"

Seriously speaking, they are here to steal our edge because on top of this, we have to record video of our trades and show them how and where we executed(!).

Really?

How are they *still* in the business after all this mockery?

(I'd rather risk my own $500 and trade one Emini myself than going through this BS every time they have *new rules*).

lightsun47 

"4. Entries and trades must follow some set of rules, and be consistent across days. Spot checks will be performed to ensure compliance" Seriously speaking, they are here to steal our edge because on top of this, we have to record video of our trades and show them how and where we executed(!). Really? How are they *still* in the business after all this mockery? (I'd rather risk my own $500 and trade one Emini myself than going through this BS every time they have *new rules*).

Well I mean its reasonable to assume that they would copy your trades, it is stated in the terms. I personally dont consider that stealing an edge, its sort of the business of prop trading.

But their terms and policies as of late are very unfavorable to their customers, and there are better options out there

Imagine finally achieving a big payout, telling your friends and family the good news, and planning how you are going to spend the money.

After a delay you are told "congratulations, but we have decided not to pay you unless you do it all again, and this time under much stricter rules that are completely different to what we told you the rules were last month".

Imagine how demoralising that would be.

This has nothing to do with going live, and is clearly psychological pressure to get a trader to blow their account within 30 days.

I don't even trade with Apex any more, and this has still got me mad!

The only way to fight this nonsense (other than legal proceedings) is to just tell all new traders and unprofitable traders to stay clear of this abhorrent company.

jlabtrades 

Well I mean its reasonable to assume that they would copy your trades, it is stated in the terms. I personally dont consider that stealing an edge, its sort of the business of prop trading.

I can give you my exact orders in real time, and you can copy them. We will have the same profit/loss. If I get hit by a bus the next day, you have no way to repeat whatever results I'm getting. If, however, I tell you how I'm generating those orders, then I'm no longer necessary. Of course with a non-mechanical trading system, the trader himself is always a key ingredient, so this is a bit of a stretch, but hopefully my point of "signals" vs "system" is clear.

Of course, Apex is not trying to steal any successful trading systems. It's clear why they would do something like this.

josh 

I can give you my exact orders in real time, and you can copy them. We will have the same profit/loss. If I get hit by a bus the next day, you have no way to repeat whatever results I'm getting. If, however, I tell you how I'm generating those orders, then I'm no longer necessary. Of course with a non-mechanical trading system, the trader himself is always a key ingredient, so this is a bit of a stretch, but hopefully my point of "signals" vs "system" is clear. Of course, Apex is not trying to steal any successful trading systems. It's clear why they would do something like this.

I hear what you are saying, that have the actual plan or blueprints allows the repeatable execution with you being removed, but I was more thinking that any sufficiently intelligent company with enough data, could actually derive the common traits of their successful customer and/or maybe some “greater” pattern that is only apparent when you look at the collective of many independent operators

Also with you on this though, do I feel Apex has shown they are capable of doing this? No. But the data scientist inside of me would love to get my hands on their funded trader data. I said it earlier in this thread, but again I think this is where the real money will be in the future for prop firms, similar to how the real value of Google and Facebook is user demographics which allows targeted ads - same can be done with prop firms, where the product or service they offer (funded accounts) is not the real money maker for the company, its the data that the customers willingly give up by using their products