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Alternatives to the US/Euro market times (such as the HSI)?


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  #1 (permalink)
 Wagtail 
Sunshine Coast, Australia
 
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Hello,

I am new to this and still looking the find an instrument that works well for me. As a result of my time zone (Australia) and very young children, I find it almost impossible to trade the US markets and have been looking for alternatives that are worthwhile.

Recently I have started looking at the HSI (Hang Seng) as it works well for my time frame, has enormous volume and seems to be frighteningly volatile. Does anyone have any past or present experience with it? Or suggestions of what else I might be better served looking at?

The 6E and DAX etc are possible for me (they open around 5pm my time), but they cause significant marital tension due to the fact it is also bath and bed time for little people. Whilst this may not be the most cold blooded and professional reason to find an alternative timeframe, I aspire to trade to live, not live to trade, and as such am looking for ways to improve the quality of life for my family. I am quite willing to put in the time and effort, but in normal business hours, the same as if I were working in a more mundane job.

Thanks

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  #3 (permalink)
 
Fat Tails's Avatar
 Fat Tails 
Berlin, Europe
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Wagtail View Post
Hello,

I am new to this and still looking the find an instrument that works well for me. As a result of my time zone (Australia) and very young children, I find it almost impossible to trade the US markets and have been looking for alternatives that are worthwhile.

Recently I have started looking at the HSI (Hang Seng) as it works well for my time frame, has enormous volume and seems to be frighteningly volatile. Does anyone have any past or present experience with it? Or suggestions of what else I might be better served looking at?

The 6E and DAX etc are possible for me (they open around 5pm my time), but they cause significant marital tension due to the fact it is also bath and bed time for little people. Whilst this may not be the most cold blooded and professional reason to find an alternative timeframe, I aspire to trade to live, not live to trade, and as such am looking for ways to improve the quality of life for my family. I am quite willing to put in the time and effort, but in normal business hours, the same as if I were working in a more mundane job.

Thanks


When selecting a instrument to trade, there are three main considerations:

-> Is there sufficient liquidity in the market?
-> I the volatility sufficient to generate decent returns?
-> At what (variable) cost can I access the market?

I would not necessarily limit the approach to index futures, but you can also look at FOREX pairs. In any case make sure that you trade through an exchange or an ECN (electronic communications network) and not against a (FOREX or CFD) broker, who takes the other side of your trade.

-> Liquidity: Look at daily volume and how it is distributed.
-> Volatility: Look at the distribution of 30 min ranges over the trading day.

Below are two charts, showing that USDJPY has significant volatility during the Tokyo session while USDGBP does not show that volatility.






-> Variable trading costs

Please explore this thread:


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  #4 (permalink)
 Wagtail 
Sunshine Coast, Australia
 
Experience: Beginner
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Thanks Fat Tails,

That is a very neat way to quickly evaluate any potential instrument. What would you consider the minimum liquidity and volatility to be?

The commissions from IB for trading the HSI are not too bad - flat rate of HKD$30 per contract per side, or tiered pricing which gets better ( i read somewhere on this forum that it is around HKD$34 round trip). At the fixed rate this equates to a round trip cost inc exchange fees of maximum USD$7.73 - not as cheap as the ES and such, but not the worst cost of trade ever (potentially much lower with tiered pricing, maybe even down to comparable costs of the ES.

Thanks to the excellent quality of posts and information available on this forum, I have learnt not to ever trade currency through an FX broker, though I do appreciate the warning. I seems to be under the impression that currency pairs are harder to trade successfully for some reason. Is this true?

The USDAUD pair also has good market depth in my optimum timezone, I will have to have a look at it.

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 Fat Tails 
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Wagtail View Post
Thanks Fat Tails,

That is a very neat way to quickly evaluate any potential instrument. What would you consider the minimum liquidity and volatility to be?

The commissions from IB for trading the HSI are not too bad - flat rate of HKD$30 per contract per side, or tiered pricing which gets better ( i read somewhere on this forum that it is around HKD$34 round trip). At the fixed rate this equates to a round trip cost inc exchange fees of maximum USD$7.73 - not as cheap as the ES and such, but not the worst cost of trade ever (potentially much lower with tiered pricing, maybe even down to comparable costs of the ES.

Thanks to the excellent quality of posts and information available on this forum, I have learnt not to ever trade currency through an FX broker, though I do appreciate the warning. I seems to be under the impression that currency pairs are harder to trade successfully for some reason. Is this true?

The USDAUD pair also has good market depth in my optimum timezone, I will have to have a look at it.


I would not vote against all FOREX brokers. The problem are brokers that have their own dealing desk and trade against their customers. FOllow the link below and then scroll down and their a good explanation on the difference between DD/NDD and ECN/STP brokers.

ECN brokers list | ECN/[AUTOLINK]STP[/AUTOLINK] Forex brokers

Both tolerable commissions and liquidity depend on the timeframe that you intend to trade. A scalper needs highest liquidity and ultra-low commissions. If you are a swing trader, neither liquidity nor commissions will be an issue.

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  #6 (permalink)
JimPunkrockford
kauai, HI
 
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i see there are also mini hang seng (MHI) contracts that are 10 points. didyou look at those? the time zone thing is not too good for me either, i'd love to find something else to trade in the evenings here in hawaii.

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  #7 (permalink)
 
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 Melba swing 
Melbourne Victoria/Australia
 
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Hi Wagtail, I feel for your indecisiveness. I'm in a similar predicament with children and being a house dad looking at making a career of trading. I'm in my 4th year and still looping around.

I'm presently looking for that just right instrument to trade with in aussie time zone and I can't find it. I'm still in the spot fx camp but wish to switch to futures. Looking at the CME volume numbers for the micro currency pairs and volume is pathetic in our asian session.

The full size contract of Aussie 6A M3 sees better volume but still not near London-N york levels. The CME website has some good data for all instruments to check out volume on intraday time frames.

That may help you make a decision, good luck.

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  #8 (permalink)
 Wagtail 
Sunshine Coast, Australia
 
Experience: Beginner
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Broker: Stage 5, IB
Trading: ES
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JimPunkrockford View Post
i see there are also mini hang seng (MHI) contracts that are 10 points. didyou look at those? the time zone thing is not too good for me either, i'd love to find something else to trade in the evenings here in hawaii.

Hi Jim,

I didnt really notice the mini Hang Seng. I figure they probably dont have the volume of the full size contract, which seems very robust in my time zone (1.8 Billion on the current 10 day average volume), and the cost to enter a full contract is not prohibitive to me. The other attractive feature is that is moves on average about 200 points a day, each worth $50HKD, which is about $6.44USD. One wouldn't have to catch much of that $1288USD average range to do more than well enough for my satisfaction, even with only one contract. It is super volatile though, and that scares me a bit, at least until I have watched it for a while and sim traded it. From a quick look ( I could well be wrong about this) it seems the Hong Kong time is about 18 hours ahead of you in Hawaii. Their market hours are 9:15am - 4:00pm with an hour for lunch. this would be 3:15 pm to 10:00pm your time. Please let me know what you think of it if you start looking

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  #9 (permalink)
 Wagtail 
Sunshine Coast, Australia
 
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Broker: Stage 5, IB
Trading: ES
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Melba swing View Post
Hi Wagtail, I feel for your indecisiveness. I'm in a similar predicament with children and being a house dad looking at making a career of trading. I'm in my 4th year and still looping around.

I'm presently looking for that just right instrument to trade with in aussie time zone and I can't find it. I'm still in the spot fx camp but wish to switch to futures. Looking at the CME volume numbers for the micro currency pairs and volume is pathetic in our asian session.

The full size contract of Aussie 6A M3 sees better volume but still not near London-N york levels. The CME website has some good data for all instruments to check out volume on intraday time frames.

That may help you make a decision, good luck.

If you havent found anything suitable in four years of looking, then I am probably screwed. I have no experience with spot fx - it is too wild west for me (and not enough data available). I come from swing trading local stocks and then playing with US options for a while. I was lucky enough to do a little better than break even, despite a fearsome lack of knowledge which I am attempting to remedy. I have dabbled with this for many years while working full time running my own business, but without the time to concentrate on it. After the next few months will be a good time for me to give up the business and make the switch, if I am ever going to be able to do it.

I was thinking of trying to move into intraday trading on the 6E and DAX, but (subject to further research) my current thinking is to learn to swing trade properly first (thanks in part to Big Mike's recommendations), and then try to develop into intraday later as I gain experience. Swing trading works fine on the Australian market, and those normal business hours are much much better than toddlers dinner time to be glued to charts and screens. Swing trading is also more forgiving of momentary lapses of attention due to nappy explosions coinciding with projectile vomit all over the monitor and such wonders of parenting.

I will certainly check out the CME site and once I get it together I will probably post a journal on the forum to keep me honest..... nah - just to get tips from people who actually know what they are doing actually Let me know if you find that perfect instrument....

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 marcopolo1 
columbus OH/USA
 
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You are in the same time zone as Japan being in Australia. I would suggest:
- the nikkei (CME) https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/equity-index/international-index/nikkei-225-yen.html
- the usd/yen (CME) https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/fx/g10/japanese-yen_contract_specifications.html

You could also check the futures traded in Japan:
- https://www.ose.or.jp/e/derivative/5376
- OSAKA DOJIMA Commodity Exchange
- TOCOM : Market Data

or Singapore:
- Singapore Mercantile Exchange - Where the world trades
- Derivatives Products At Singapore Exchange Ltd | SGX

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Last Updated on July 25, 2013


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