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Suggestions for brokers / platforms for new futures traders?
Hi everyone, I've been trading with Apex Trader Funding (prop firm) for about a year, and interested in creating personal accounts for trading ES.
Is there a master list of options out there, or a comparison of the tools?
I've been searching the forum all night and if I know what to search for (Ninja Trader, Tradovate, etc.) its easy to find threads and reviews, but I'm still at the stage where I'm trying to learn all my options.
I'm looking for just a simple setup, I dont need fancy indicators, just a DOM and limit orders and i'll be happy. I do like using BookMap when I'm at my desktop, but more than half the time I'm on my phone or iPad due to work. I guess also looking for a lower cost option both from license and margin requirements.
I've been using Tradovate, and like the web app for desktop and ipad, and their mobile app isnt the best but it'll get the job done. It looks like Ninja just bought them too so Ninja is the same as Tradovate now. Not sure if I should have others on my radar. I see some with a two system tool stack of a chart provider and data provider (something I havent messed with before), but that seems overkill for my usage to be honest.
If anyone has suggestions, or if there is a good thread, I would love to see it, thanks!
Can you help answer these questions from other members on NexusFi?
If it helps you with your decision, NinjaTrader's web platform is actually Tradovate.
A few other brokers I'd recommend you research are Edge Clear, Optimus Futures, AMP Futures, and that's all I have off the top of my head.
And stay away from TradeStation. That broker hires rude and incompetent staff to handle customer service (Don't believe me? Look up their reputation on TrustPilot). Their platform is severely outdated, and is so poorly written that even on a fast computer the charts stutter while scrolling.
There is, unfortunately, no such point-by-point comparison thread, and probably there can't be one... everyone is going to have their own opinions, and their own experiences, and will present their own views. They will probably all be honest perspectives, but probably all (or most) will be different. Let me take a shot at giving at least a way to orient yourself.
Touching on something you mentioned, yes, it is very common for a broker to offer "a two system tool stack of a chart provider and data provider". In fact, many brokers offer more than one trading platform (which I think is what you mean by your "chart provider") and in some cases more than one data provider and trade router (which is usually the firm that provides the data, but not necessarily.) Why? Well, not every broker wants to make the effort to re-invent the wheel, and create their own trading platform, for instance, when there are many very good ones that they can just license and offer to their customers. Brokers like Tradovate, NinjaTrader, ThinkOrSwim, TradeStation, and perhaps a few others that are slipping my mind right now, provide an integrated environment with everything packaged up for the customer. This is convenient for the customer, who doesn't have to make any choices once he has decided on a broker, but most brokers don't do it this way.
Why not? Well, all these functions are in fact different, and can be supplied by different providers, who can often do them better than an individual broker. (Almost all brokers use one of a very few data/trade routing networks, rather than having their own. And many brokers use third-party trade platforms. Most offer several.) If a broker has their own trade platform (such as NinjaTrader), that may be their added value. But in many cases, what a broker can offer that is unique is (supposedly) something like their customer service, or some other service-related feature aside from the trade platform or execution. Does this matter? In some cases it will. So you can see how an evaluation of features and services may be difficult or subjective.
(And by the way, yes, Ninja has acquired Tradovate, but in no sense is Ninja "the same as Tradovate now." Hopefully, at some point as their administrative and backoffice staffs are fully merged, their pure brokerage services will be the same, but the Tradovate trading platform and the NinjaTrader platform are not even slightly similar, and the reasons why someone would prefer one to the other are not the same either. Ninja probably acquired Tadovate to get the web app, which will probably stay more Tradovate-ish for a while, but because of NT's enormous user base, may end up going more the other way to accommodate all the NT desktop users. Who knows?)
In the meantime, what to do?
Well, you can always try out a broker's trading platform. Almost any broker will give you a free trial of a few weeks to test-drive it on a simulated trading basis. (Expect sales emails pestering you to sign up in the meantime .) You should be able to get a read on a trade platform in a short time of simulated trading, and it's mainly an individual decision of what works for you. If you don't need much, as you have said, then many will do fine. So that's something you can decide on for yourself, and fairly quickly.
You can't, in any meaningful way, try out things like the quality of fills or time to get a fill without real trading -- you'll have to take your chances on this. But this is not usually a big issue. Fortunately, your broker will probably use one of the standard routing firms to get their trades to the exchange, so in most cases, unless your situation is very unusual, this is not usually a significant area for decision-making. Usually it will be good enough.
Data may be provided by the same firm that routes your trades, or you may have an option to use a separate one, if you have particular needs. The two major trade and data firms are Rithmic and CQG, so you can look into these for differences in what they provide. There are also separate firms that provide data but not trade routing. You can look into these if you wish -- another complication that I won't go into here. (I would simply ignore the question in most cases.)
You can get a sense of things like customer service and support from your own interactions with their support people if you are trying them out. But really, this requires a long-term acquaintance. You can get some idea from posts on the forum, but realize that these may reflect individual issues someone had with them. That doesn't mean they are invalid, just individual. Try to asses them as well as you can. It's unfortunate, because customer service and support are among the things that matter most, but you won't really know until you try them.
This pretty much leaves it to things like commission costs and margin requirements, as you have said. Fortunately, these are often available on their web sites. If not, you may legitimately wonder why not. And, you can always ask them.
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I hope this post has been of some good for you. When I started in futures, the broker question was bewildering, and only by trying a lot of things and reading a lot (and not always accepting all I read) did I get any idea of what to decide. In fact, it's not all that difficult a decision when you pare it down to what you want: the trading platform and other technical factors, or the costs, or the margin, or, more difficult to nail down, the service (which you can try to assess by reputation).
Plus, you can always change once you have some experience. And please note that not everyone would agree with everything I have said.... these evaluations are often personal and individual, as I said.
Good luck.
Bob.
When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
AMP - I use sierra chart which offers a great DOM. The Sierra chart DOM offers 100 bids and offers which is really valuable to me and is why I use it. You can get data from all CME exchanges for about $35 which is a decent price. I believe sierra chart is not offered on mobile so this may not be the one for you. I like the low commissions but the downside is lack of customer service. You have to contact them through an online messaging system. Low day trading margins are attractive with AMP as well, $40 to day trade the MES. Only $100 to open the account with AMP.
Infinity/TransAct - great DOM and is very fast, commissions are a little higher but they have a dedicated phone line/trade desk for any of your questions. They also offer a mobile DOM which is just as fast as the desktop DOM. Their DOM only offers the 10 best bids/offers but this may not be a big deal.
For the DOM I have read that Jigsaw is awesome and is the best DOM available but you can make the sierra chart DOM do the same thing if you know how to navigate the platform.
Ninjatrader is the go to broker is your just getting starting, although I do not have experience with them. They are probably the biggest futures broker and most popular.
Interactive Brokers has not had good reviews on this forum. People don't like the platform and the margins are very high.
Wow great post, thanks Bob! Yeah the whole data package vs broker vs charting service I guess has me a bit confused, but like you said I guess I just need to try them out. Have you had any experience with Iron Beam? I see them being advertised quite a bit.
Thanks for the info! I haven't heard of Infinity before so I will definitely add it to my list for comparison. Are all of these desktop apps, or do any of them offer web solutions? I could always use the web views when I'm mobile. I know Ninja/Tradovate have a web solution and I'm pretty familiar with that too
AMP offers like 50 trading platforms and I'm sure some of those are web. Infinity offers web based also. What I did is I started with what platform I liked the most then I found which brokers offered the platform I liked. Sounds like you need a good DOM and a web based platform. Maybe start there. Ninja and tradovate may be the best options for your web based needs in my opinion. You can try them then switch if you find a better one.
I have no experience with Ironbeam. There are so many brokers out there. You will see mention of them on the forum now and then. You can look for a review in the review section.
I believe they do have their own web app, and they offer a number of different trading platforms as well.
Aside from the occasional review you may find, the choice of broker/platform/etc. is all really just something for your research and, where you find something you like, your experimentation.
Most will probably be OK if they offer a basic setup that appeals to you. However, some don't stay in business, sometimes for really bad reasons, so checking reputation where you can is still worthwhile.
The industry is regulated, but ultimately there is a decision to make, and you will need to just make it.
Bob.
When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
.) You should be able to get a read on a trade platform in a short time of simulated trading, and it's mainly an individual decision of what works for you. If you don't need much, as you have said, then many will do fine. So that's something you can decide on for yourself, and fairly quickly. 
