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Prop firm fraud in Futures? (on the back of My Forex Fund scam/CFTC ruling)
What's the true definition of a prop firm? I ask, because I'm confused.
I can clearly see that there are two types of going concerns that operate under label "prop firm." There are firms who solicit traders who have a professional background and those who solicit retail traders, many of whom have little to no trading experience.
I'm inclined to believe the former is a prop firm and the latter is not, in the true sense of the term.
Am I looking at this incorrectly?
Can you help answer these questions from other members on NexusFi?
The truest definition of a proprietary trading firm is one where you trade with someone else's money. So you front 0 (or minimal) of the capital and therefore have lower risk.
Most of the online prop firms are simulation futures environments, where you trade in a sim or demo account and your trades never hit the tape. There are pros and cons to this approach of sim trading, but as long as the company actually pays out as expected most dont seem to care and like the accessibility of these online services.
Since you can't really get a degree in trading, by professional trader do you mean the IRS definition? https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc429
Or do you mean one who uses trading as an occupation? I think the majority of the customer base of the sim prop firms are retail traders, but I would assume that since the risk to the user is low/minimal the SEC wouldn't care as much about the risk these provide, as opposed to say options trading.
After reading the documents, I would summarize the issues as:
1) they acted as counterparty to the trades
2) the trades qualified as retail trades
3) they failed to register as an exchange dealer for these trades
4) they failed to publish these transactions to an exchange
5) they omitted material facts from customers about these "valid" retail transactions and deceived customers of true profits (used their own commissions to reduce account equity, delaying execution of orders, worse prices than appeared to the customer at the time an order (slippage), using specialized software to artificially increase the spread)
All of that to say, the onus appears to be whether you can be classified as servicing “retail commodity transactions” per 7 U.S.C. § 2(c)(2)(D)(i)
- Do simulation-based future prop firms fall under those regulations? It appears the answer is NO, if you do not actually make the market for the trades and if you do not represent the trades as "real". So I see no correlation to the simulation-based future prop firms. These specific regulations get into the definition of a retail commodity transaction is if a contract is entered between two parities, which doesn't happen in the fake simulation and evaluation accounts.
Another point being made is that they provided "leveraged, margined, or financed retail [...] commodity transactions in violation of the Commodity Exchange Act (“Act”), 7 U.S.C §§ 1-26, and accompanying Commission Regulations (“Regulations”), 17 C.F.R. pts. 1-190 (2022). "
- Do simulation-based future prop firms fall under those regulations? No, again if its not a real trade, then there is no transaction to actually comply with this act
The terms professional trader and drawdown are used in the document not to say these are anchor points for fraud, but that these mechanisms in conjunction with the rest of the scheme outlined in the document are all in conflict and only show that they were trying to fraud user out of money using their service.
- Do simulation-based future prop firms use these same terms? Heck yeah they do.
- Does that mean they are trying to do the same scheme (payout successful traders with the new trade sign-ups and pocket the rest [ponzi-like scheme])? Harder to prove if they aren't also the trade counterparty, but the inclusion of these terms could mean its just a bad deal that consumers shouldn't sign up for (easier for you to lose and not make payout).
I doubt successful hedge fund traders or ones with access to large amounts of capital are trading on online sim services. There could be a few, but I haven't heard of any. There are more traditional, in the office, with a real 250k live account prop firms in New York that definitely do have past professional traders
I don't think Deel stopping payment services to prop firms necessarily means there's a problem with eval prop firms.
For example, I know with Stripe they won't allow you to create a business selling crypto. Yet we have Coinbase, so buying and selling crypto isn't necessarily a problem, just that Stripe as a payment processor doesn't allow it.
I suspect Deel is similar. Going to Deel's website, they look like they want to position themselves as a SaaS HR and Payroll company. Based on that, eval prop firms really just aren't a good fit for Deel's core business.
to add to that, when I was funded by Earn2trade, once I passed the evaluation I signed a legal contract with another company.
When I was about to withdraw profits, I asked if I could convert these into discounts for evaluations and they said NO.
Basically there was a clear division between companies doing the selections and the ones allocating capital.
To me this is a clear sign that companies were very serious.
Honestly I don't see any problem with MFF business model either. I mean seriously: they cashed in 300M in fees and paid out 173M to traders. A total of 135000 clients , lost the remaining 127M, do the math.
Basically they lost around 1000USD each.
With that money they could not even open an account.
With 1000 USD they had access to a potential drawdown of 20K....and statistically if they had opened an account with 20K they would have lost 90% of it in 90 days.
So basically they lost 1000USD on average instead of 18000USD.
It's still a bargain.
Concenring spreads.... in the 80s traders paid 100 USD per each future contract!
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I'd agree with that - doesn't mean that the evaluation side isn't setup with the vision of making money as well as finding good traders.
You mean other than it violates the law in multiple ways? There is no such thing as an unregulated off-exchange future. Those are either Swaps/CFDs or Forwards. CFDs are illegal in the US and you can only trade Swaps & Forwards if you are an ECP ("Eligible Contract Participant") and these retail people definitely were not ECPs. (talking commodities here not currencies)
How the Deel situation changed this week was: Deel updated their Terms of Service - Prohibited Activity List.
The background is:
CFTC Complaint paragraph 4.
4. Traders Global pays customers who trade successfully. But substantially all of the payments come from fees paid by other customers, in a manner similar to a Ponzi scheme, and not from the proceeds of profitable trading against “liquidity providers.”
On Monday September 11, 2023, Deel added this language to their Prohibited Activity List: https://www.deel.com/terms-of-service
30. Prohibited Activity List - Prohibited User Activites
"Activities that relate to transactions that support pyramid or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, other “get rich quick” schemes or certain multi-level marketing programs."
And suddenly, this week, Deel is no longer doing payouts for unregulated futures prop companies. Draw your own conclusion...