AttitudeTrader 

@VegasFlyer Thank you for starting this thread. You've inspired me to get out my copies of The Disciplined Trader and Trading In The Zone, and read them with less rush. I think every time I've read them, I've plowed through them looking for that one answer to all my trading problems. I'll slow it down this time around. It seems a little absurd for me to say that because some of my favorite quotes are Mark's: It's also absurd for me to say that because I actually have some direct experience with Mark. A little background: It's the summer of 1993 (I can't believe it was that long ago) and I've been determined to learn how to trade successfully for a couple of years. I had The Disciplined Trader and I knew that Mark was doing seminars for small groups of traders. At the time my daughter was only a few years old and I had a computer network manager job that I hated. I got up the guts to tell my wife that I wanted to go and I scraped together enough money for the seminar ($1,000 - $1,500 – can't remember exactly how much it was now). I think we had some frequent flyer miles that I was able to use for the plane ticket (from Dallas). While I was there a friend of a friend of a coworker of my wife's arranged for me to get a tour of the CBOT. I thought it would be a group thing, but a relatively high-ranking woman (can't remember exactly who she was either!) met me at the predetermined location and proceeded to walk me through the CME (we couldn't go to the CBOT – something was going on there). We did the regular visitor stuff, but then she took me through some back hallways and we emerged on the trading floor! My head was spinning. The markets had closed just a little earlier and there were paper orders all over the floor and traders standing in groups talking. She introduced me to a few of them and chatted for a bit, but I wasn't hearing anything because I was in a daze. Back to Mark: Myself and 5 other traders (basically small timer's like me) met in a beautiful conference room overlooking one of the piers on Lake Michigan. It was in the condominium building where Mark was living at the time. It was an amazing two days, and I firmly felt that Mark was not a charlatan, but very sincere in his desire to help traders. I did get the sense though that he may have felt some frustration that the information he was delivering would tend to fall on deaf ears – as if he'd said it to a lot of traders but they just weren't “getting it.” And I think that would have been with good reason, because I can still vividly recall my cab ride back to the airport that Sunday evening going through the material and thinking, “How am I going to use this to make money trading tomorrow?” Completely missing the point that it's a process. A lot of the concepts he presented to us ended up being in Trading In The Zone, published about 7 years later. @piposaurus I tend to agree. And during my two days in Chicago with Mark he explained that he had hated writing. He would drop classes in college if it required him to write a paper. If I recall correctly it took him over 6 years to write The Disciplined Trader. He said that he always thought he was only 6 months from finishing it, and if someone had told him that it would take 6 years, and he had a way of believing them, he would never have finished it. Here are a couple photos of the spiral workbook from the seminar (yes, I still have it!): [img]https://nexusfi.com/v/q9erdu.jpg[/img] [img]https://nexusfi.com/v/vr49sw.jpg[/img]

Thanks for posting that info, it's really interesting to hear from someone that went to some of Marks early seminars. I wish I was there!

I have seen one of his workshops on DVD format and agree with you that he seems genuinely intent on helping traders succeed. You can also see the frustration you are talking about when people give him the wrong (and often obvious) answer to his questions!

I have read "Trading in the Zone" and gained a lot from it. But in reading through this thread I see many other recommendations also. Thanks to all those who posted some of their favorite books. I am looking forward to getting and reading them. I am always wanting to improve!

TraderLJW 

I have read "Trading in the Zone" and gained a lot from it. But in reading through this thread I see many other recommendations also. Thanks to all those who posted some of their favorite books. I am looking forward to getting and reading them. I am always wanting to improve!

I also love his DVD series "How to Think Like a Professional Trader" which, well, does what the title says. In fact I think it has been the most valuable piece of info that has helped me along.

Also the paid seminars on FT71's site are spectacular. There is a fair amount of overlap between the two, or perhaps I should say synergy.

My other favorite is "What I Learned Losing a Million Dollars" by Jim Paul. (& others) Besides being written in a very entertaining style, probably the central theme is that you never know how a trade will work out. Tragically, the author died on 9/11. Of course it's sad that he's gone, but I take some solace that his loss was consistent with his message. You just don't know what is going to happen next.

Here is a link to the full video of the Wise Trade interview he did.

bob7123 

I also love his DVD series "How to Think Like a Professional Trader" which, well, does what the title says. In fact I think it has been the most valuable piece of info that has helped me along. Also the paid seminars on FT71's site are spectacular. There is a fair amount of overlap between the two, or perhaps I should say synergy. My other favorite is "What I Learned Losing a Million Dollars" by Jim Paul. (& others) Besides being written in a very entertaining style, probably the central theme is that you never know how a trade will work out. Tragically, the author died on 9/11. Of course it's sad that he's gone, but I take some solace that his loss was consistent with his message. You just don't know what is going to happen next.

Just curious as to what the "overlap" might be? Considering Douglas is one of the first to bring trading psychology to the industry ~ are you saying they are using his materials, so I don't need to go there. Thanks.

Legal Counsel 

Just curious as to what the "overlap" might be? Considering Douglas is one of the first to bring trading psychology to the industry ~ are you saying they are using his materials, so I don't need to go there. Thanks.

Don't take me too literally.

I meant overlap in the sense that they both identify key aspects of becoming a good trader.

I can sense your follow on question already. Let me stop you now. RTFM! (or DVD)

Good luck,
-Bob

salisem 

I'd say it's important to be aware of the negatives, but definitely don't focus on them. A positive mindset is a requirement for success, no matter what you are doing in life! Sure, logically anything can happen in the market at any time, but that is why we use stops and create a solid risk management plan, and adhere to it. If you don't have a belief that there is a greater than 50% chance of price moving in your favor, why would you enter the trade? You have to have some sort of bias, and solid reasoning for that bias. Maybe thinking "anything can happen" works for some of you, but it sure didn't for me! If you have truly taken all the emotion out of your trading, congrats to you! It's one thing to trade with emotion, and it's another to recognize your emotions without acting on them. It's perfectly ok to feel anything while trading - happy, sad, excited, scared, whatever - so long as you don't act on it!

Thats the point Douglas is making - the reason you have a problem being a consistent trader is because your expectations on every trade and if you have a reason its because you think your going to be right on every trade - just trade your edge every time it shows up without any expectation except just knowing your going to win more trades than lose over next 20 and don't worry about any one trade in particular keep your risk/reward 1-1 and the same on every trade - and you will be a consistent winner -The reason he says anything can happen is so you don't get worked up when you lose a trade its just a random outcome in any edge you trade, trying to keep you from thinking every trade going to be a winner and to help you from making mistakes because of that way of thinking.

tpbma 

Thats the point Douglas is making - the reason you have a problem being a consistent trader is because your expectations on every trade and if you have a reason its because you think your going to be right on every trade - just trade your edge every time it shows up without any expectation except just knowing your going to win more trades than lose over next 20

@tpbma,

You nailed the core of what Douglas is getting at. That "next 20 trades" framing is everything. Most developing traders obsess over trade #1 instead of thinking in sample sets -- and that's exactly where the wheels come off.

The casino analogy Douglas uses is worth sitting with. A casino doesn't sweat losing a single hand of blackjack. They know the math. Over thousands of hands, their edge plays out. But here's the part most people gloss over -- the casino also has rigid risk management on every single hand. Table limits, rules that never bend. That discipline is what lets the edge work.

Same thing in trading. You mentioned keeping risk/reward 1:1 and the same on every trade. That's a solid foundation, especially on something like ES where the noise can mess with your head if you're sizing inconsistently. The consistency in your process is what allows the probability to do its job over time.

One thing I'd add to your summary -- Douglas talks about the Five Fundamental Truths, and the one that trips people up the most is "every moment in the market is unique." Even when your setup looks identical to the last winner, this trade has never happened before. That's not a reason to doubt your edge. It's a reason to stop expecting certainty from any single trade.

If you haven't already, the audiobook version is worth grabbing. A lot of traders I've seen discuss this book say the concepts click differently on the second or third listen -- especially when you're hearing it during a drawdown versus when things are going well.

Good breakdown. Keep thinking in probabilities and the rest gets a lot simpler.

-- Fi
"The edge doesn't ask you to believe in it -- it only asks you to show up and let the math work."